In this episode we talk with poet Nicola Davies about the Centre for Literacy in Primary Poetry Award (CLiPPA). The CLiPPA is the UK’s leading prize for poetry for children and each year highlights outstanding new collections for the young and very young.
She takes us the through the 2026 Shortlist and we also talk about her her role as the Children’s Laureate for Wales and quite a bit about birds too.
The CLiPPA Shortlist is as follows:
- Five Little Friends: A Collection of Finger Rhymes, by Sean Taylor, illustrated by Fiona Woodcock, Walker Books
- A First Book of Bugs, by Simon Mole, illustrated by Adam Ming, Walker Books
- The Poetry World of John Agard, by John Agard, illustrated by Shirley Hottier, Otter-Barry Books
- Press Start to Play, by Sam Gayton, illustrated by Jack Noel, Andersen Press
- This Is Not A Small Voice: Poems by Black Poets, selected by Traci N. Todd, illustrated by Jade Orlando, Nosy Crow
Nicola also mentioned this book about birds:
The Seabird’s Cry The Lives and Loves of Puffins, Gannets and Other Ocean Voyagers, by Adam Nicolson, illustrated by Kate Boxer
Katy
0:11
Hi,
I'm
Katy.
Ali
0:13
And
I'm
Ali
and
welcome
to
Mostly
Book
Talk.
We
have
a
great
interview
for
you
with
Nicola
Davies,
who's
the
chair
of
judges
for
this
year's
CLiPPA
Prize.
We
had
to
look
that
up.
It's
the
Centre
for
Literacy
in
Primary
Education's
Poetry
Award.
Katy
0:26
Enjoy.
Katy
0:31
We
are
very
pleased
to
have
with
us
today
Nicola
Davies,
who
is
well,
she's
so
many
things.
So
she
is
an
author,
a
poet,
a
scientist,
was
a
TV
presenter.
Do
you
still
do
TV?
Nicola
0:42
No,
I'm
far
too
ancient.
Nobody
will
put
my
rich
face
on
the
telly
anymore.
Katy
0:46
And
she
is
the
current
children's
laureate
for
Wales.
And
she
is
also
the
chair
of
judges
for
the
CLiPPA
Poetry
Award,
which
is
what
we're
going
to
talk
about.
So
welcome,
Nicola.
Lovely
to
be
here.
Nicola
1:00
Thanks
for
having
me.
Katy
1:02
Really
nice
to
have
you
here.
You've
done
so
many
things.
What
do
you
see
yourself
most
as?
Is
it
oh
crazy?
Yeah,
Ali
1:10
or
what's
on
your
passport?
Nicola
1:11
.
I'm
going
to
have
to
get
a
new
passport
next
year.
So
I
don't
remember
what
it
says
on
my
passport,
whether
it
says
zoologist
or
writer.
I
think
it
might
say
writer
now.
So
I
had
one
for
many
years
that
just
said
zoologist.
Because
even
though
I
was
writing,
I
didn't
kind
of
feel
like
I
was.
I
mean,
that's
the
one
I
would
most
cherish.
Although
I've
written
lots
of
different
things.
Everything
I
write
is
an
absolute
pain.
Except
for
writing
poetry,
which
I
just
love.
Katy
1:48
So
I
would
always
thought
that
that
was
the
hardest
thing
to
write.
Nicola
1:51
Um,
I
don't
know
why
it
is,
but
it's
the
thing
that
comes
most
easily
to
me.
I
mean,
not
that
any
writing
comes
easily
to
anyone,
because
it's
not
an
easy
process.
One
of
the
things
I'm
often
saying
to
children
is
when
you're
struggling
with
that
blank
page,
when
you're
having
that
fight
with
a
blank
computer
screen,
don't
think
that
means
you
can't
do
it.
Of
all
the
things
I
write,
poetry
is
the
thing
I
love
most,
and
I
love
doing
it.
I
think
that's
because
I
was
raised
with
it
first.
My
family
is
not
a
posh
family,
but
my
dad
knew
lots
of
poems
by
heart.
So
he
recited
them
to
me.
But
I'm
sure
all
those
poets,
and
I
used
to
love
Keats
when
I
was
young.
My
dad
loved
Keats,
so
I
know,
you
know,
season
of
mists
and
mellow
fruitfulness,
all
of
that.
But
I'm
sure
all
of
those
poets
struggle
with
that
blank
page
thing.
I
often
say
to
kids,
don't
think
you
can't
do
it
because
you
find
it
hard.
Everybody
finds
it
hard.
Hardly
ever
do
you
just
sit
down
and
go,
there's
the
beginning,
there's
the
middle,
there's
the
end.
I
mean,
once
in
an
absolute
blue
moon,
something
will
come
down
my
arm
onto
the
page.
Almost
like,
how
is
that
happening?
I'm
not
sure.
But
usually
it's
a
question
of
redrafting,
rethinking,
throwing
it
away
and
starting
it
again.
And
I
think
that's
a
really,
really,
really
important
thing
for
kids
to
understand
about
creativity
in
general,
is
that
bad
is
the
way
you
get
to
good.
Failing
is
absolutely
on
the
direct
line
to
success.
That's
something
that
kids
really,
well,
everybody
struggles
with
that,
but
I
think
in
the
context
of
children
in
school,
in
classrooms,
which
is
very
goal-oriented
behavior,
creativity
is
not
necessarily
goal-oriented
behaviour.
It's
all
round
the
houses,
and
you
don't
kind
of
know
what
you're
gonna
get.
And
that
doesn't
quite
fit
with
learning
outcomes.
Ali
3:50
And
there's
something
something
you're
saying
there
as
well
about
having
the
space
to
leave
things
and
come
back
to
them.
Nicola
3:56
Oh
my
god.
Ali
3:57
Do
you
know
you
don't
have
that
in
school,
do
you?
You
have
to
hand
it
in.
Nicola
4:00
You
absolutely
don't.
The
only
book
about
writing
I've
ever
read
is
Stephen
King's
On
Writing.
The
most
useful
piece
of
information
in
that
book
is
when
you
finished,
put
it
in
a
drawer
and
don't
look
at
it
for
a
month.
I
don't
have
the
opportunity
to
do
that
very
much,
but
my
goodness
me,
is
that
helpful
or
what?
Yeah.
You're
not
so
you're
not
so
tied
to
it.
Yeah.
And
you
can
be
just
that
little
bit
more
objective
about
what
you've
written
and
you
see
the
bits
that
you
need
to
take
out
and
where
you
need
to
tighten
it,
where
you
need
to
expand
it.
You
know,
it's
much,
much
more
obvious
when
you
haven't
looked
at
it
for
a
while.
Ali
4:38
Yeah.
Katy
4:39
And
sometimes
you
probably
go
back
to
things
and
think
it
was
actually
much
better
than
you
thought
it
was
when
you
left
it.
No,
no,
Nicola
4:45
no,
not
so
much.
Katy
4:48
I
kind
of
hope
that
happens
sometimes.
Nicola
4:50
No,
sadly
not,
usually
the
reverse.
Usually.
Katy
4:56
Ever
hopeful.
Ali
4:57
We
wanted
to
talk
about
your
poetry
collection,
Choose
Love,
which
was
about
the
refugee
experience,
was
highly
commended
in
the
CLiPPA.
And
what's
it
feel
like?
You're
obviously
on
the
shortlist,
which
was
amazing,
and
now
you're
chairing
the
prize.
How's
that?
Nicola
5:12
Prizes,
I
know
with
my
logical
head
that
prizes
being
shortlisted,
being
longlisted,
that
process
is
very
tied
up
with
the
business
of
publishing,
with
the
costs
of
entering
books
and
all
of
that
stuff.
It's
not
a
completely
level
playing
field.
And
it's
a
lot
about
luck,
whether
people
just
happen
to
like
what
you've
done.
And
yes,
there
are
criteria
and
there
are
ways
that
we
all
recognize
good
writing
when
we
see
it,
but
we
also
just
like
some
things
and
don't
like
others.
Ali
5:46
Yeah.
Nicola
5:46
And
that's
nothing
to
do
with
the
quality
of
the
work.
So
I
was
absolutely
aware
that
I
was
just
lucky
to
be
on
that
short
list,
but
it
felt
like
the
most
extraordinary
validation.
You
know,
talking
about
what
profession
I
put
on
my
passport,
the
profession
I
have
always
wanted
to
put
on
my
passport,
all
my
life,
actually,
as
poet,
and
getting
that
CLiPPA
special
award,
especially
for
those
poems
which
were
uh
a
great
responsibility
to
be
given
people's
real,
very
difficult,
often
very
tragic
stories,
and
to
be
entrusted
with
their
retelling,
to
have
those
have
a
big
green
tick
beside
them.
That
was
huge
for
me.
That
was
absolutely
huge.
And
I
think
many
writers,
many
female
writers,
not
so
many
male
writers,
but
many
female
writers,
the
biggest
struggle
for
us
is
self-belief.
And
it
is
for
me.
Even
after
your
incredible
track
record.
At
the
moment,
I
feel
like
a
failure
at
the
moment.
Like
a
total
failure
at
the
moment.
Next
week
I
might
feel
a
bit
better,
but
right
now,
today,
rubbish.
Yeah.
That's
that's
what
it
is.
I
mean,
you
know,
I
know
lots
of
female
friends
who
write,
and
most
of
us
feel
like
that
on
a
record
basis.
And
is
that
because
your
mind
is
on
the
one
that
you're
currently
trying
to
write,
which
you
haven't
got
done
yet,
even
though
you've
got
such
an
extraordinary
backlist
of
books?
I
mean,
the
list
goes
on
and
on
and
on,
and
so
many
of
them
have
been
highlighted
and
awarded,
and
everything
else.
Yeah,
but
the
things
that
get
lauded
in
the
publishing
world
and
in
the
children's
publishing
world
are
the
latest
celebrity
who
has
written
a
book.
I
went
to
the
London
Book
Fair
last
year
and
Ciara
Knightley's
book.
Huge
posters
everywhere.
Yeah.
Now
I
haven't
seen
it,
I'm
sure
it's
a
perfectly
nice
book,
but
it's
not
more
perfectly
nice
than
Britta
Teckentrup's
book
or
Mariajo Ilustrajo's
book,
or
a
whole
list
of
really
fantastic
author
illustrators,
particularly
with
picture
books,
who
would
struggle
to
get
that
level
of
attention.
And
I
can
be
very
logical
about
that
and
say,
yeah,
that's
just
the
way
the
publishing
works.
But
actually,
what
it
feels
like
as
an
author
on
your
own
behind
your
desk
or
in
your
studio
is
it
feels
like
being
kicked
in
the
face.
It
just
does.
I
can
see
that.
Yeah.
And
it
is
that
peculiar
thing,
well,
not
peculiar
thing,
but
the
reality
that
publishing
is
a
business,
it's
a
commercial
business.
Yeah.
And
writing
is
a
creative
endeavor,
and
the
two
kind
of
sit
alongside
each
other
slightly
uncomfortably.
Never
must
I
or
anyone
working
creatively
lose
sight
of
the
fact
that
it
is
an
incredible
delight
and
privilege
to
be
able
to
work
creatively.
It's
a
really,
really
fantastic
thing.
And
also
to
remember
that
even
though
the
kind
of
commercial
world,
well,
the
world
outside
of
the
creative
industries
is
very
fond
of
saying
that
it's
frivolous
and
what
we
do
doesn't
matter.
And
actually,
what
matters
is
stocks
and
shares
and
columns
of
figures
and
all
of
that.
Yeah,
that
stuff
does
matter.
But
actually,
in
times
of
trouble,
and
we
are
going
to
be
entering
probably
about
250
years
of
big
trouble.
The
arts,
music,
writing,
painting,
thinking
creatively,
that's
what's
going
to
get
us
through.
Nicola
9:24
Katy
9:24
It's
something
we
should
all
remember,
the
value
of
that.
Nicola
9:28
Um,
absolutely.
And
particularly
poetry,
because
poetry's
portable.
Yes.
You
can
put
in
your
heart
and
carry
it
around
with
you
forever
and
ever.
And
you
can,
as
you
say,
as
your
father
did,
you
can
memorize
it.
You
can't
memorise
a
600-page
novel,
but
you
can
memorize
it.
Katy
9:45
Yeah.
Before
we
go
on
to
talk
about
a
CLiPPA
and
the
prize,
can
we
just
ask
you
about
one
of
your
other
hats,
which
is
the
Children's
Laureate
Wales,
which
you're
in
the
middle
of
the
term,
aren't
you?
It's
a
two-year
term.
Yeah.
What
do
you
do
as
a
laureate?
Nicola
9:58
It
is
slightly
like
nailing
jelly
to
a
wall,
knowing
what
you're
supposed
to
do.
And
I
think
for
the
Welsh
laureateship,
it's
even
more
amorphous
because
I
am
only
half
of
the
Welsh
laureateship
team.
Sean
Thomas
Owen,
who
is
a
legend
in
his
own
lifetime,
totally
fabulous
person,
who
is
the
Bath
Plant
Cumbri,
who's
the
Welsh
language
version.
The
Welsh
language
laureate,
Children's
Laureate
for
Wales,
has
a
longer
history
than
the
English
version.
So
I'm
the
English
language
version.
And
it's
new,
it's
a
slightly
tricky
position
because
of
the
whole
kind
of
politics
of
the
Welsh
language
in
Wales.
But
what
I
do
have
the
opportunity
to
do
is
do
lots
of
work
with
kids,
working
with
other
organizations
too,
not
just
Literature
Wales,
who
are
the
organization
that
supports
the
laureateship,
and
they
are
very
much
about
writing.
So
I'm
also
working
with
the
National
Literacy
Trust.
So
I've
been
in
schools
in
Cardiff
this
week
talking
to
parents
about
reading
to
their
kids.
And
I
have
creative
projects
that
Literature
Wales
have
found
funding
for.
So
I'm
doing
a
project
around
map
making
and
about
thinking
about
landscape
and
time
and
connecting
kids
with
place.
So
a
mixture
of
visual,
spatial
awareness,
and
detail,
putting
that
into
words
and
pictures.
I'll
be
working
at
six
Welsh
castles.
Ali
11:24
Oh,
fancy.
Nicola
11:25
I've
been
listening
to
podcasts
about
plantagenic
history,
so
I've
got
a
bit
of
background.
And
kids
are
going
to
be
making
their
own
annotated,
illustrated
plans
and
maps.
Katy
11:38
Oh,
that
sounds
amazing.
Nicola
11:40
We'll
spend
two
days
exploring
each
castle
and
making
these
map-based
artworks.
I
think
it's
probably
the
best
way
to
describe
it.
So
it's
going
to
be
great
fun.
And
then
Fran
Evans,
who's
a
lovely,
lovely
illustrator
who
also
happens
to
be
a
friend,
she
has
a
wonderful
specialism
in
turning
children's
input,
both
visual
and
written,
into
illustrated
maps.
So
for
each
castle,
she'll
make
a
big
map.
Ali
12:07
And
will
that
map
stay
at
the
castle
for
people to see?
Nicola
12:09
Well,
what's
going
to
happen
is
there's
going
to
be
a
traveling
exhibition.
How
exactly
that's
going
to
work
is
to
be
discovered.
I'm
trying
to
tie
my
love
of
the
natural
world
into
the
literacy
focus
of
the
laureateship.
So
next
year
it's
about
noticing,
again,
noticing,
listening,
seeing,
identifying
migratory
species
that
come
to
Wales,
writing
about
that.
I
wanted
an
opera
at
first,
but
I
had
to
wind
my
neck
in
a
bit.
Now
it's
going
to
be
a
songbook,
hopefully.
So
we'll
turn
the
children's
writing
into
music
that
can
be
performed.
And
so
connect
Welsh
children
with
the
idea
of
Wales's
connection
with
the
Atlantic
and
Live
by
the
Sea.
The
Atlantic
is
there.
It's
a
straight
line
between
me
and
Newfoundland.
And
of
course,
all
the
birds
that
come
to
the
Pembrokeshire
Coast,
all
the
birds
that
come
to
us
from
sub-Saharan
Africa.
It's
good
to
be
reminded
that
borders
are
an
entirely
human
invention.
Yeah.
And
Welsh
and
music
is
in
the
blood
of
my
family
is
both
sides
from
working
class
communities
in
South
Wales
on
the
Gower
Peninsula.
And
in
the
middle
20th
century
and
throughout
the
19th
century,
there
were
working
class
communities
who
organized
music
festivals,
who
were
organized
by
Steadfords.
You
know,
there
was
there
was
a
train
that
came
from
London
on
a
Friday
night
or
a
Saturday
morning,
I
can't
know
which
it
was,
and
it
had
a
nickname.
I
can't
remember
the
nickname.
It
had
this
nickname
because
so
many
of
the
people
on
that
train
were
soloists
who
were
employed
by
Isteadford's
and
music
events
organized
by
working
class
communities
in
Wales.
So
they
would
supply
the
choir
and
the
orchestra
and
they
perform
an
oratorio
and
then
they
pay
soloists
to
come
from
London.
Katy
14:11
Amazing.
Ali
14:12
That's
amazing.
Nicola
14:13
Yeah,
isn't
it?
Katy
14:14
Yeah.
So,
in
terms
of
your
migratory
visitors,
which
one
has
the
longest
journey?
Nicola
14:20
Swallows
are
pretty
close,
pretty
up
there.
But
one
that
I
absolutely
adore,
uh,
and
because
it's
here
in
South
Wales
in
enormous
numbers,
but
if
you
don't
go
to
the
offshore
islands,
you
don't
see
them.
And
because
lots
of
the
scientific
work
on
migration
was
done
on
them,
Manx
Shear
waters.
They're
like
little
mini
albatrosses,
and
they
come
to
Pembrokeshire
from
Argentina
off
the
coast
of
Patagonia.
Katy
14:49
And
where
are
they
going
to?
Nicola
14:51
They are going to Scoma
and
Ramsay
And
there
are
some
on
the
Isle
of
Man or
on
Bardsey,
and
they
nest
in
holes.
We
hold
more
than
half
of
the
whole
species
here
in
South
Wales.
They
should
be
our
national
bird.
There's
no
two
ways
about
it.
And
they
are
extraordinary,
extraordinary
little
birds.
When
you
see
a
picture
of
them,
they're
not
much
to
look
at,
but
when
you
see
them
fly,
these
long
narrow
wings
and
they
shear
the
water.
Ali
15:15
Do
they
come
to
nest
here
and
then
fly
home?
Nicola
15:17
They
come
to
nest
here,
they
come
to
nest
in
burrows,
and
then
at
the
end
of
the
breeding
season,
the
adult
birds
leave
their
very
fat
little
babies
in
the
burrow
and
they
go.
And
the
babies
stay.
The
babies
then
grow
their
feathers,
come
out
of
their
burrows,
look
around,
and
head
out
to
sea.
But
one
of
the
really
uh
tragic
things
that
happens
is
because
when
they're
heading
out
to
sea,
what
they're
looking
for
is
that
bright
line
of
the
horizon.
And
then
the
prevailing
winds,
uh,
and
there
are
various
smells,
particularly,
that
they
are
keyed
in
to
follow.
So
the
prevailing
winds
and
the
smell
of
plankton,
basically,
that's
what
guides
their
path.
And
it
takes
them
down
past
the
coast
of
Spain,
and
then
they
pick
up
the
gyre
of
winds
that
goes
over
the
top
of
the
South
Atlantic
and
takes
them
to
Patagonia.
Gosh.
So
the
babies
go
as
well
in
the
year
that
they're
born.
Babies
go
in
the
year
they're
born.
Yeah,
they
do.
But
without
their
parents.
Because
there
are
lots
of
light
lights
on
land,
and
if
there's
an
onshore
wind,
combination
of
onshore
wind
and
too
many
lights,
they
will
get
stuck.
They
fly
in
land,
and
once
they're
on
land,
they
really,
really
struggle
to
take
off.
Last
year
it
was
a
huge
wreck
of
hundreds
of
birds.
But
the
people
in
temperature
here,
there's
a
big
volunteer
force
who
go
all
the
way
along
the
beaches,
hundreds
of
people,
and
rescue
these
birds
and
then
take
them
back
out
to
sea
and
relaunch
them.
So
I
can't
forgot
what
the
figure
was
for
last
year,
but
it
was
a
huge
number
of
birds
last
year.
Ali
16:47
That's
bonkers
and
lovely.
Nicola
16:49
It
is
bonkers,
and
there
were
lots
and
lots
of
stories
that
came
out
of
that
last
year.
I'll
just
tell
you
one,
which
is
my
favourite.
So
there's
a
village
along
here
called
Roach,
and
there
is
an
elderly
lady
living
in
a
retirement
bungalow,
and
one
of
these
little
shear
waters
ended
up
in
her
garden
behind
her
hydrangeas.
And
one
of
her
neighbours
said,
Oh,
it's
just
a
bird,
it'll
find
its
way.
And
after
three
days,
it
hadn't
found
its
way.
And
she
happened
to
see
a
poster.
She'd
lived
in
Roach
all
her
life,
but
she
had
no
idea
about
the
shear
waters
that
are
right
there.
And
a
volunteer
came
round
and
put
the
bird
in
the
box
and
told
her
all
about
this
bird's
amazing
story
about
where
it
was
going,
where
it
would
spend
the
winter,
how
it'd
find
its
way
back
to
Skoma
next
spring.
And
as
she
handed
the
box
over,
this
lady
bent
over,
kissed
the
box,
and
said,
Send
me
a
postcard.
Katy
17:43
That's
so
lovely.
Nicola
17:44
How
lovely
is
that?
Katy
17:46
That's
really
lovely.
I
was
just
reading
a
book
by
Katya Balon.
I
think
it's
Floodline.
Ghostlines.
Ghostlines.
Ghostlines.
Yes.
Yeah.
But
in
that
part
of
the
story
is
that
they're
on
an
island
but
up
in
Scotland
and
they
have
loads
of
puffins.
And
apparently
every
year
some
of
the
puffins
hatch
late.
And
so
all
the
puffins
leave.
And
then
there
are
some
that
come
out
late.
So
in
the
story,
they
have
to
turn
all
of
the
lights
off
on
the
island
and
get
the
puffins
so
that
they
go
off
in
the
right
direction,
the
little
baby
puffins.
Right.
Um,
it
really
reminded
me
of
that.
Nicola
18:30
Some
of
them
head
up
to
nearly
Greenland,
some
of
them
head
up
to
the
middle
Atlantic,
some
of
them
go
down
to
the
Med.
Gosh.
Uh,
some
of
them
go
to
the
coast
of
Spain.
After
this,
I'm
gonna
have
to
go
find
it
all
out
about
Shearwaters
and
Oh,
shearwaters.
Totally
amazing.
There's
a
lovely
book,
Adam
Nicolson,
The
Seabirds
Cry.
Highly
recommended.
I
crew
on
a
wildlife
watching
boat
every
summer,
and
that's
my
revision
book.
Read
that
at
the
beginning
of
every
spring,
get
it
all
back.
You
know
what's
going
on.
Get
all
my
facts
back
in
a
straight
line
before
I
get
on
board
the
boat
and
say,
Okay,
everybody,
this
isn't
this,
and
this
is
what
it
does,
and
that's
or
that.
Katy
19:05
It
sounds
amazing.
Sounds
amazing.
Ali
19:06
Maybe
you
could
put
shear
water
spotter
on
your
passport.
Nicola
19:09
She's
shear
water
wrangler.
Ali
19:14
So
we
should
move
on
to
the
CLiPPAs.
I've
been
on
an
exciting
diversion.
Katy
19:19
So
tell
us,
for
listeners
who
haven't
come
across
the
CLiPPA
before,
what
is
it?
What
does
it
do?
What
does
it
involve?
Nicola
19:25
The
CLiPPAs
are
a
fantastic
award
for
children's
poetry.
They
are
run
by
the
CLP,
hosted
by
the
CLP.
And
if
you
don't
know
what
the
CLP
is,
you
need
to
know.
They're
a
wonderful
organization.
The
Center
for
Literacy
and
Primary
Education,
fantastic
organization,
amazing
support
for
teachers
and
books
and
writers
and
illustrators.
Totally,
totally
brilliant.
The
CLiPPA
Awards
are
an
annual
award.
And
what
happens
is
that
a
panel
of
judges
is
appointed,
and
that
includes
teacher
specialists,
poetry
specialists,
poets.
So
this
year's
judging
panel
was
fantastic.
Well,
I
had
the
honour
to
be
the
chair
of
the
CLiPPA
judging
panel
this
year,
but
I'm
very,
very
glad
to
say
that
I
had
a
lot
of
extremely
capable
help.
There
were
four
other
people
on
the
panel
with
me.
Lisa
Mead,
who's
the
editor
of
Apples
and
Pears,
so
she
knows
loads
about
poems,
about
poetry
performance,
and
Anjali
Patel,
who's
uh
a
fantastic
member
of
the
CLPE
staff,
who
is
an
advisory
teacher
and
has
huge
experience
of
using
poetry
in
schools,
particularly
with
little
kids.
We
had
Jake
Hope,
lovely
Jake
Hope
from
YLG,
who's
also
very
involved
with
the
Carnegie
Dodging
Panel.
And
last
year's
winner
of
the
CLiPPA
Award,
Colette
Hiller.
So
I
wasn't
alone.
Uh,
and
actually
hearing
all
the
different
perspectives
from
those
different
judges
was
really,
really
fantastic.
I
learned
so
much.
We
get
a
mahoosive
pile
of
books
along
listed.
So
I
literally
had
four
cardboard
boxes
on
my
desk
of
books,
and
they're
an
enormous
variety.
So
there
are
books
for
little
teenies,
teenage
verse
novels,
and
everything
in
between.
Illustrated,
not
illustrated,
just
the
most
mind-boggling
variety
of
things.
So
whittling
that
down
was
really,
really
hard.
I
have
judged
poetry
and
book
competitions
before,
so
I'm
kind
of
daunted,
but
not
quite
as
daunted
as
I
might
be
if
I
was
doing
it
for
the
first
time.
So
actually,
the
first
filter
is
pretty
easy,
actually.
Sorting
out
the
first
line
of
wheat
from
what
fairly
obviously
I
don't
want
to
call
it
chaff,
but
not
kind
of
first
order
stuff.
But
Then
whittling
down
the
short
list,
that's
the
bit
that
the
judges
get
together
to
do.
So
we
spend
a
day
sitting
round
a
table
with
a
pile
of
books.
And
we
go
through
all
the
books
and
do
that
wiggling
again
collectively.
And
then
we
arrive
at
a
list
which
we've
scored.
Basically,
yes,
no,
and
maybe.
Right.
And
then
we
talk
about
all
of
them
because
there's
a
certain
amount
of
overlap
for
the
yeses,
but
the
no's
and
the
maybes,
not
so
much.
So
then
every
single
book
gets
read
aloud,
gets
talked
about,
and
everybody
brings
their
particular
expertise.
And
actually,
I
have
to
say,
I
think
every
single
one
of
us
on
the
judging
panel
altered
our
opinion
as
a
result
of
listening
to
other
perspectives.
And
that
was
really
fantastic.
I
mean,
it's
my
job
as
chair
to
make
sure
that
everybody
has
a
say.
So
if
somebody's
going
off
on
one
on
their
favourite
book
or
their
favourite
dislike,
I
have
to
make
sure
that
I
get
them
to
shut
up
so
that
everybody
else
can
say
what
they
want
to
say
about
it.
So
we
really
do
get
a
real
kind
of
consensus
on
each
book.
It
was
the
most
pleasurable
judging
experience.
It
really
was.
It
was
fantastic.
Listening
to
other
people's
opinions,
listening
to
their
very
detailed
and
thoughtful
analysis,
knowledgeable.
It
was
just
totally
brilliant.
It
really
was
absolutely
lovely.
And
I
was
really
happy
with
the
short
list
that
we
finally
arrived
at.
The
other
thing
about
the
short
list
is
the
short
list
is
really
the
winners,
you
know,
because
what
we
do
is
we
do
try
and
make
sure
that
there's
something
for
everybody
in
the
short
list,
so
that
there
are
a
range
of
books
across
the
age
groups.
So
really,
everybody
on
that
short
list,
I
would
like
them
all
to
win.
I
wish
that
we
didn't
have
to
just
choose
a
single
winner.
I
think
it's
crazy
choosing
a
single
winner.
And
I
think
in
the
light
of
everything
we've
been
saying
about
creativity
and
learning
outcomes
being
an
anathema
to
each
other,
I
think
creativity
and
one
winner
are
slightly
ridiculous.
So
for
me,
the
short
list
are
the
winners.
But
that's
the
nice
thing
about
shortlists,
isn't
it?
It
does
bring
all
of
those
books
or
all
of
those
uh
publications
to
the
attention.
So
most
people,
when
they
see
a
shortlist,
they
will
look
at
all
of
them.
That's
absolutely
true.
I
spend
a
lot
of
time
either
behind
my
desk
writing
or
in
schools
talking
to
kids,
getting
them
to
write,
getting
them
to
make
pictures,
talking
to
them
about
my
work.
So
I'm
not
as
aware
of
what's
going
on
with
other
people's
writing
in
other
areas
of
children's
publishing
as
I
was
when
I
was
teaching.
I
used
to
lecture
in
creative
writing,
and
I
really
did
have
a
bit
more
of
a
finger
on
the
pulse
then.
And
I
absolutely
don't
now.
So
when
I'm
looking
for
books,
I
look
at
the
long
lists
for
the
Carnegie,
for
the
Greenaway,
for
the
Wainwright,
for
the
CLiPPA.
And
that's
incredibly
helpful.
And
it's
a
really
helpful
way
of
finding
really
good
books.
And
that's
why
I
wish
more
teachers
were
aware
of
those
prizes
because
I
still
encounter
many
teachers
who
simply
do
not
know
about
these
children's
book
prizes.
And
they're
a
really
fantastic
way
of
finding
books
that
you
can
then
introduce
to
your
kids.
Ali
25:31
Yeah,
that's
part
of
our
mission,
really,
is
the
world
out
there.
Yeah,
exactly.
Katy
25:39
When
people
are
in
the
judging
panel
and
you're
in
that
room
and
someone's
going,
This
really
works,
or
I
really
like
this,
what
are
they
seeing
in
those
books
and
those
poems?
Nicola
25:48
That's
a
question
really
about
what
does
poetry
do?
And
that's
really
tricky.
For
me,
what
poetry
does
uniquely
is
it
combines
factual
information,
observation,
experience
with
emotion
and
puts
it
into
language
that
may
not
be
complicated,
but
is
carefully
choreographed
to
carry
imagery
and
emotion
so
that
it's
a
perfect
little
package
that
goes
straight
into
your
heart.
And
even
if
what
you're
reading
about
in
that
poem
is
something
that
you
have
never
experienced
yourself,
what
you
have
is
an
act
of
recognition
when
you
read
those
words.
Even
though
it's
something
you
don't
know,
you
recognize
it.
You
recognize
the
reality
of
the
human
experience
and
the
human
vision.
And
that's
true
even
in
the
simplest
poems
for
the
youngest
children,
even
in
poems
that
are
designed
to
be
hilariously
funny
and
frivolous,
there
is
something
more
going
on
underneath
the
surface.
Definition.
Something
more
going
on
that
is
weirdly
beyond
words.
That
sounds
a
very
strange
thing
to
say
about
an
art
form
that
is
actually
all
about
words,
but
what's
going
on
in
a
poem
is
more
of
words.
So
that
what
I'm
looking
for
when
I'm
reading
a
poem
is
that
moment,
that
little
thrill,
actually,
that
the
poet
delivers.
And
I
think
so
much
of
that
is
about
where
the
poet
is
coming
from.
I
don't
think
you
can
fake
it.
You
you
it
has
to
be
from
your
soul,
it
has
to
be
from
your
heart,
it
has
to
be
coming
from
somewhere
absolutely
real
and
authentic
in
you
to
write
that.
You
can
fake
it,
you
can
write
things
that
look
like
a
poem,
that
read
like
a
poem,
but
they
don't
have
that
little
kernel
in
them
because
they
haven't
come
from
a
true
place.
And
I
think
you
spot
that.
Katy
27:50
It
was
interesting
how
you
dealt
with
the
funny
ones
as
well,
because
some
of
them
are
just
designed
to
be
fun.
Nicola
27:55
Absolutely.
And
that's
fine.
The
other
thing
to
say
is
for
the
books
that
we
didn't
choose,
that
doesn't
mean
to
say
that
they
aren't
worthy
of
finding
a
readership.
Yeah.
They're
doing
a
different
job.
Yeah,
yeah.
And
I
suspect
that
there
are
some
that
came
very
close.
It's
actually
physically
painful
to
have
to
put
them
in
the
reject
panel.
And
I
think
for
most
people
on
that
judging
panel,
you
know,
we
know
these
writers.
Yeah.
That's
an
added
layer
of
pain
when
you're
essentially
saying
to
somebody
you
know,
well,
actually,
I'm
I'm
not
going
to
choose
your
book.
That's
pretty
hideous.
We've
also
said,
Well,
the
chair
of
the
panel
of
judges,
for
goodness
sake.
I
know,
but
I
don't
have
a
casting
vote.
Oh,
that's
handy.
Okay.
So
you
blame.
Democracy,
that's
good.
Democracy
in
action.
Absolutely.
I'd
love
to
have
chosen
your
book,
but
I
was
outvoted.
I
did
choose
it,
but
it
was
unvoted.
What
can
we
tell
you?
Ali
28:50
No,
that's
great.
Do
you
want
to
give
us
a
rundown
of
them
all?
Nicola
28:53
Oh,
yeah,
I'd
love
to.
I've
got
the
pile in no
particular
order.
The
other
thing
I
was
saying,
do
look
at
the
CLiPPA
shortlisting,
which
is
online,
because
all
the
poets
read.
Oh,
brilliant.
All
of
them.
She's
gorgeous.
The
only
person
who
didn't
read
was
John
Agar
because
he
wasn't
able
to
attend,
but
his
illustrator
read,
and
she
was
fabulous.
So,
first
up,
we
have
Press
Start
to
Play
by
Sam
Gayton
with
this
absolutely
gorgeous
cover
and
lots
of
nice
little
interior
illustrations
as
well
as
a
cover
by
Jack
Noel,
and
that's
published
by
Anderson
Press.
So
it's
one
of
those
books
that
you
might
just
think,
oh,
this
is
just
about
fun.
So
it's
all
about
games,
about
video
games,
about
board
games,
but
it's
also
about
children's
relationship
with
that,
their
relationship
with
themselves,
with
their
families.
There's
all
sorts
of
things
that
get
into
these
poems.
So
they're
really
fun,
they're
really
accessible,
they're
lovely
performed,
read
out
loud,
which
is
important.
There
are
lots
of
kids
who
think
poetry's
not
for
me
will
find
poetry
is
for
them
through
this
book.
Katy
30:07
Interesting.
It's
quite
an
unusual
topic,
isn't
it?
Nicola
30:10
Even
though
it's
not
an
expensive
edition.
Actually,
it's
really
nicely
printed
and
laid
out,
and
the
paper
quality
is
quite
good.
All
that
stuff
actually
really
matters,
particularly
with
poetry,
because
it
really,
really
matters
how
you
relate
to
the
page
and
how
you
look
at
the
page
and
the
font
and
all
of
those
things.
It's
a
very
pleasing
book
to
have
in
your
hand
and
very
portable,
and
that's
relevant
because
of
the
nature
of
these
poems.
You
carry
it
with
you
and
you
dip
in
and
dip
out
of
it,
and
you
read
them
to
your
friends.
Really
good.
Katy
30:50
Am
I
right
in
thinking
that's
his
first
poetry
book?
Nicola
30:53
Do
you
know?
I
don't
know.
Yeah,
okay.
It
might
be
actually.
Katy
30:56
Because
I
think
he's
written books…
Nicola
30:58
Yeah,
he's
written
a
playwright
and
all
sorts
of
does
all
sorts
of
things.
He's
terribly
groovy
and
marvellous.
That's
great.
They
had
a
hat
on.
Katy
31:06
And
what
age
group
is
that
aimed
at?
Nicola
31:08
That
is
slightly
older.
I
would
say
that's
slightly
older.
I'd
say
year
five
advanced.
Okay.
But
year
seven,
eight,
nine
could
yeah,
get
it.
It's
got
a
great
cover
on
it
as
well,
hasn't
it?
Because
like
you
say,
they'll
pick
it
up.
Yeah.
It's
really
cool,
yeah,
and
fun,
and
it
tempts
you
in
with
apparent
frivolity
and
then
delivers
all
sorts
of
little
nuggets
of
something
a
bit
more,
which
is
very
good.
Nicola
31:31
Next
up
is
an
anthology.
This
is
Not
a
Small
Voice.
Now,
there
were
quite
a
few
anthologies
that
were
in
the
CLiPPAs,
and
some
of
them
I
had
a
bit
of
a
problem
with
because
they
had
absolute
anthology
standards
in
by
very
well-established,
sometimes
19th
or
20th,
early
20th
century
poets.
And
I
think
a
lot
more
going
on
in
the
world
than
this.
So
I
had
my
doubts
about
that.
Although
this
book
has
some
things
that
are
and
some
names
in
it
that
will
be
familiar,
there
are
lots
of
new
things,
there
are
lots
of
names
that
I
didn't
know,
I
probably
should
know,
but
didn't
know.
It
presents
poems
that
are
about
all
aspects
of
black
experience.
This
is
not
a
small
voice
poems
by
black
poets.
Having
said
that,
it's
not
a
poem,
a
poetry
book
just
for
people
of
colour.
It's
a
poetry
book
for
everybody.
Because,
as
I
was
saying
earlier,
when
you
read
a
good
poem,
even
if
it's
something
you've
never
experienced,
you
empathize
with
it,
you
recognize
it
as
authentic
human
experience.
And
some
of
the
things
that
are
being
written
about
in
here
are
difficult
and
sad.
Some
of
the
things
that
are
being
written
about
in
here
are
just
lovely
and
wonderful.
And
overall,
I
would
say
this
is
a
fantastically
inspiring,
uplifting,
positive
collection.
Your
heart
will
sing.
And
it's
a
very
beautiful
thing.
Katy
33:13
Yeah,
it's
a
beautiful
book,
isn't
it?
Nicola
33:16
I
absolutely
love
that.
Katy
33:17
It's
a
really
nice,
beautiful
book.
It's
US,
Caribbean,
and
the
UK,
isn't
it?
Nicola
33:22
So
there's
lots
of
gorgeous
Caribbean
speech
rhythms
in
here.
There's
the
poetry
of
spoken
language,
actually,
is
very
well
represented
in
these
poems.
It's
a
real
kind
of
cultural
picnic,
too,
which
I
really,
really
loved.
So
it's
fantastic.
This
is
Not
a
Small
Voice.
Poems
by
black
poets.
Chosen
by
Tracy
N.
Todd,
who
is
an
absolutely
wonderful
person,
her she
is
fab,
and
illustrated
by
Jade
Orlando,
very
beautiful
illustrations,
and
a
great
marriage
of
the
words
and
the
pictures.
Nicola
33:57
So
this
one
is
the
book
for
the
youngest
of
our
audience.
So
this
is
Five
Little
Fingers,
a
collection
of
finger
rhymes
by
Sean
Taylor,
illustrated
by
Fiona
Woodcock.
Now,
this
is
the
one
that
I
changed
my
opinion
about,
I
have
to
confess.
So
this
wasn't
on
my
short
list,
but
when
I
heard
from
our
teacher
specialist,
when
she
was
talking
about
working
with
this
book
with
very
little
kids
and
kids
who
find
language
difficult,
so
children
with
learning
difficulties,
I
absolutely
got
it.
I
absolutely
got
how
well
these
rhymes
work
and
why
they
work
and
why
they're
important.
And
I
went
back
and
read
them
again,
and
the
penny
dropped,
I
have
to
say.
And
it's
lovely.
Each
poem
comes
with
a
series
of
simple
little
gestures
that
you
can
do
with
your
child.
So
these
are
things
that
you
could
do
with
the
very
smallest
kids,
with
babies,
and
you
can
do
it
with
children
who
have
learning
difficulties.
Kids
who
are
visually
impaired
can
enjoy
these
poems
too,
because
you
can
do
the
gestures
with
a
hand.
And
I
could
imagine
that
some
of
these
poems
could
become
little
rituals,
little
bedtime
rituals
that
you
would
do
with
your
little
baby
right
the
way
through
their
toddlerhood
until
they
started
school.
Something
maybe
even
that
they
would
remember
right
the
way
into
adulthood.
There
are
many
parents
now
who
struggle
to
find
ways
to
relate
to
their
little
kids.
And
this
is
a
way
into
that.
This
is
a
way
in
for
parents
to
discover
how
to
have
fun,
how
to
have
those
lovely,
sharing,
one-the-play,
intimate
moments
with
their
smallest
children.
So
that
book
is
doing
a
really,
really
important
job.
Katy
36:04
And
it's
amazing
to
be
able
to
come
up
with
a
whole
load
of
new
poems
about
your
fingers
and
Nicola
36:11
absolutely.
So
I
totally
take
back
everything
I
thought,
and
I'm
utterly
won
over
by
that
book
now.
So
this
book
is
right
on
my
home
territory.
This
is
a
first
book
of
bugs
by
Simon
Mole,
illustrated
by
Adam
Ming.
Now,
as
I
have
many,
many
times
in
my
career
tried
to
turn
natural
history,
non-fiction
information
into
poetry
that
sings
and
taps
its
feet.
I
know
how
hard
this
is.
I
know
what
a
miserable
journey
it
can
be.
How
frustrating,
how
infuriating,
how
maddening
it
can
be.
And
Simon
Mole's
just
done
the
most
brilliant
job.
All
these
poems
deliver
proper
science,
proper
natural
history,
accurate,
interesting,
enlivening,
actually,
information.
And
the
marriage
with
the
illustrations
is
absolutely
gorgeous.
Oh
wow,
lovely.
Isn't
that
gorgeous?
There
are
lots
of
lovely
little
thoughts
in
here.
And
that's
the
other
thing
that
I
really
want
poems
to
do
is
I
want
them
to
make
me
think
about
something
I
know
in
a
new
way.
So
the
first
step,
and
the
second,
and
the
third,
and
the
fourth,
and
the
fifth,
and
the
sixth,
to
talk
about
the
steps
of
a
millipede.
Very
often
you
take
your
first
step.
But
if
you're
a
millipede,
you
don't
just
take
your
first
step,
you
take
your
97th
step,
and
that's
absolutely
gorgeous.
Katy
37:43
And
he's
a
performance
poet,
isn't
he?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I
think
there
are
quite
a
lot
of
videos
of
him
performing
poems
from
that
book.
So
people
can
look
out
for
those.
He's
very
good.
Nicola
37:52
The
illustrations
do
a
really
good
job
too,
because
I
have
a
real
bugbear
with
illustrations
that
are
so
stylized
they're
not
actually
helpful
anymore.
But
these
are
great
because
they
all
character
of
an
illustrative
voice,
but
they're
also
absolutely
accurate.
Accurate
or
satisfying,
satisfied
my
internal
geek.
Ali
38:13
A
big
tick.
Big
tick.
There's
someone
doing
lots
of
fact
checking
on
that
book.
Is
there
a
big
tick?
Is
there
a
tick
in
the
book?
Nicola
38:21
Is
there
a
tick?
No,
I
don't
think
there
is
actually.
No,
there
isn't
a
tick.
Katy
38:27
I
saw
in
the
introductory
the
shortlisting
video,
was
there
was
one
about
an
insect
that
blasts
things
like
Nicola
38:34
the
Bombardier
Beetle
that
blows
hot
chemical
vapour
out
of
its
bum.
Who
doesn't
like
an
explosive
rotten?
What's
not
to
like
love?
Yeah,
we
did
the
bombardier
beetle
on
The
Really
Wild
Show
once.
We
had
a
little
camera
close
up
to
its
bum
when
it
went
and
hundred-degree
hotness.
It's
a
very
unique
trait.
It
is
a
very
unique
trait.
I
can't
really
see
myself
how
I
would
find
useful
that
in
my
life,
but
certainly
not
on
board
boats.
No,
absolutely
not.
Nicola
39:07
You've
got
the
last
one.
The
last
one
is
this
gorgeous
treatment.
But
this
is
the
poetry
world
of
John
Agar
with
absolutely
gorgeous
illustrations
by
Shirley
Hottier.
So
this
is
a
collection
of
poems
right
the
way
across
John's
long
and
marvellous
career.
But
even
the
oldest
poems,
the
ones
that
I
remember
encountering
first
when
I
was
presenting
a
poetry
programme
on
Radio
5
more
than
30
years
ago,
they're
as
fresh
as
paint,
they
really
are.
They
haven't
aged
or
tarnished
in
any
way.
And
John's
poetry
is
a
really,
really
fantastic
example
of
how
you're
reading
something
that's
fun,
that's
making
you
smile,
that's
making
you
feel
the
playfulness
and
music
of
language,
but
you're
also
getting
a
hit
of
real
emotion.
Katy
40:06
His
poems
were
really
radical
when
he
first
was
writing
them
in
the
80s,
wasn't
there?
Nicola
40:11
Absolutely.
And
all
the
kind
of
wonderful
incorporation
of
Caribbean
speech
rhythms
that
back
in
the
80s
people
would
have
said,
Well,
that's
not
very
that's
not
proper
English.
All
of
that
monster,
it's
all
there.
It
just
absolutely
glows
and
gleams.
Yeah,
absolutely.
Absolutely.
Just
gorgeous,
gorgeous,
gorgeous.
And
also
it's
a
really
nice
size.
Poetry
books
need
to
be
hard
back.
They
do.
Because
you
go
back
to
them.
Because
you
go
back
to
them,
they
need
to
have
a
long
life.
And
these
are
poems
that
would
speak
to
you
from
when
you're
little
to
when
you're
old.
Good.
Katy
40:58
So
that's
an
amazing
introduction
to
those
books.
So,
in
terms
of
dates,
you've
announced
the
shortlist.
Yeah.
So
the
materials
all
out
about
that.
There's
a
shadowing
scheme
that
has
opened
up
for
schools,
and
all
of
the
information
about
that
is
on
the
CLPE
website.
And
that
includes
lots
of
resources
for
schools.
Nicola
41:18
Lots
of
resources
for
schools
also.
This
is
really,
really
important.
Schools
can
upload
videos
of
kids
performing
and
reading
the
poems.
And
on
the
final
celebration
day
when
the
awards
are
given,
which
happens
in
London,
on
the
9th
of
July,
and
on
that
day,
for
each
shortlisted
book,
there
will
be
a
child
or
a
group
of
children
who
will
be
selected
to
come
on
stage
and
perform
one
of
the
poems
from
each
of
the
books.
It's
a
fabulous
day.
And
the
kids
performing
the
poems
is
absolutely
wonderful.
From
my
collection,
Choose
Love,
this
fantastic
young
girl
came
and
performed
one
of
the
poems
from
the
collection.
And
it
was
honestly
truly
one
of
the
highlights
of
my
life
seeing
that
poem
performed.
So
it's
a
really,
really
special
thing
and
fantastic
to
involve
the
readers
in
this
event
and
the
celebration
of
poetry.
Katy
42:20
So
schools
can
take
part,
it's
completely
free.
They
sign
up
on
the
CLP
website,
there's
resources
there,
they
can
read
the
poems,
they
can
then
perform
them
either
singly
or
can
they
do
it
as
a
group?
Nicola
42:32
Yeah,
they
can
do
it
as
a
group.
We've
had
Matt
Goodfellow's
poem
a
couple
of
years
ago.
Just
had
about
five
or
six
kids
on
stage
doing
it
like
a
couple
of
performance
bit
movements,
and
it
was
brilliant.
And
when
they
submit
their
poems,
they
have
the
chance
to
come
to
the
final
on
the
9th
of
July.
Katy
42:49
So
you've
mentioned
that
in
terms
of
having
children
performing
the
poems,
and
clearly
a
very
moving
moment
for
you.
Why
get
children
to
perform
poems
and
speak
them
out
loud?
Nicola
42:58
Because
that's
what
poetry
is
about.
Poetry
is
about
portability,
the
sound,
the
music,
the
sharing.
I
think
more
than
any
other
sort
of
writing,
actually,
poetry
is
about
sharing
it.
And
because
poems
do
have
that
portability,
you
can
learn
them,
you've
got
it
to
share
with
somebody
else
and
to
hear
it
spoken
and
to
hear
it
out
loud.
It's
absolutely
part
of
that
poem's
life
and
existence
to
be
performed
and
shared.
And
I
think
for
children
to
see
that
happening,
to
understand
that
this
is
a
very
unique
and
special
cultural
form
that
allows
them
to
connect
with
other
people
in
a
way
that
they
might
never
have
done
before
or
never
had
the
courage
to
do
before,
I
think
is
a
really
important
part
of
the
job
that
poetry
does
in
the
world.
Katy
43:54
Yeah.
And
we've
talked
to
the
Poetry
by
Heart
competition.
And
the
kids
doing
that,
the
impact
that
has,
and
watching
some
of
the
performances
for
that
are
amazing.
It
does
work
very
well.
So
it's
the
National
Year
of
Reading.
Do
you
have
special
hopes?
And
I
know
that
the
CLP
are
expecting
record
numbers
of
schools
to
take
part
because
of
the
highlight
the
National
Year
of
Reading
has
put
on
all
of
these
events.
What
are
your
hopes
for
it?
Nicola
44:21
I
hope
that
with
the
National
Year
of
Reading,
it
will
put
books
and
reading
back
closer
to
the
centre
of
everybody's
cultural
life.
And
I
think
the
role
that
poetry
has
in
that
process
is
poetry
is
quick
and
easy
and
accessible
to
read.
So
for
people
who
don't
think
they
can
make
time
for
war
and
peace,
or
all
20
of
Patrick
O'Brien's
novels,
which
I
love
and
will
reread
this
year.
Poetry
is
a
really
fantastic
entry
level.
And
because
there
are
so
many
different
voices,
and
I
think
particularly
for
diversity
and
different
ethnicities
that
we
have
in
the
UK,
poetry
really
speaks
to
and
for
those
people
now.
And
performance
poetry
is
a
wonderful
way
of
getting
people
to
understand
the
power
of
the
spoken
and
the
written
word.
And
that's
another
portal
into
reading
and
books
that
I
think
will
open
wider
during
the
national
year
of
reading.
Katy
45:36
Thank
you.
It's
been
amazing
talking
to
you.
It's
been
such
a
nice
conversation.
And
what
I've
loved
also
is
that
there
is
a
wonderful
sound
of
bird
song
in
the
background.
Which
feels
incredibly
fitting
and
it's
really
lovely.
It's
very
relaxing.
Nicola
45:51
There's
so
many
birds.
I
went
for
a
run
this
morning,
and
the
white
throats
they
love
hedgerows,
and
the
hedgerows
around
here
are
pretty
battered.
But
there
are
bits
of
hedgerow
that
are
still
good
enough
for
white
throats,
and
there
were
little
white
throats
siting
and
singing
in
the
tops
of
the
hedges
this
morning.
Ali
46:06
So
lovely.
A
few
parakeets
in
my
back
garden.
They're
very
pretty,
but
they
do
look
a
bit
odd.
They're
joyful.
They're
just
but
they
go
around
in
little
gangs.
That's
what
I
find
so
funny.
If
Katy
46:20
they
come
out
into
my
garden
as
well,
there's
never
just
one
or
two,
there's
like
30,
40
of
them
that
all
think
this
is
our
tree
today,
and
they're
all
there
being
really
noisy,
and
then
they
move
on
together.
Ali
46:30
And
I
have
an
owl
as
well.
We
have
a
tawny.
Yeah.
Oh,
that's
lives
at
the
back.
And
that's
and
sometimes
it's
kind
of
like
oh,
the
owls.
Owls
makes
me
very
happy.
But
most
of
the
time
it's
just
noise
and
traffic.
Katy
46:44
Thank
you
so
much.
Nicola
46:45
Brilliant.
Ali
46:45
Thank
you.
Katy
46:50
You
may
have
realized
that
we
found
it
really
hard
to
stop
that
conversation.
We
were
having
such
a
good
time.
Ali
46:57
A
lot
of
extra
questions
that
she
didn't
really
need
to
answer
in
order
to
keep
on
the
line
because
we
were
having
such
a
lovely
time.
Katy
47:03
Yeah.
So
urge
you
to
go
and
seek
out
the
CLiPPA
shortlist.
There's
lots
of
really
lovely
things
to
read
and
explore
there
to
get
involved
in
the
shadowing
scheme.
And
yeah.
Anything
else,
Ali?
Ali
47:17
I
just
think
it
was
just
lovely
to
listen
to
her
talk
about
wildlife
with
the
birds
in
the
background.
And
if
she'd
been
teaching
me,
I
don't
know,
whatever,
ornithology,
I
would
be
a
very
good
ornithologist.
Katy
47:30
Yes,
I
think
anything
really
could
have
happy
listening
to
chat
about
all
sorts
of
things.
But
I
don't
know
whether
the
bird
noise
comes
through
when
you're
listening
to
it.
I
tried
not
to
cut
it
out,
but
it
was
very
peaceful
listening
to
it
in
the
background.
Ali
47:44
It
was
very
good.
We
really
enjoyed
that.