We talked to Jeffrey Boakye and tried very hard to stay on the topic of children’s books (and mostly succeeded). We talked about his middle grade series which starts with Kofi and the Rap Battle Summer, his books on music – Musical Truth and Musical World and what he is currently working on.
We detoured into what everyone got up to in the 80s and 90s when there were only four TV channels and no mobile phones and then came back to children’s books and why the diversity of both authors and main characters is on the decline again.
You can find more information about Jeffrey here and the books we discussed are as follows:
Kofi and the Rap Battle Summer
Kofi and the Secret Radio Station
Musical Truth, illustrated by Ngadi Smart
Musical World, illustrated by Ngadi Smart
Faith’s First Case (out Feb 2027)
And the book Jeffery recommended to us was
Wild East by Ashley Hickson-Lovence
Ali
0:11
Hi,
I'm
Ali.
Katy
0:13
And
I'm
Katy,
and
welcome
to
Mostly
Book
Talk.
Ali
0:15
W e
have
a
great
episode
for
you
with
the
multi-talented
Jeffrey
Boakye.
We
range
over
quite
a
few
topics,
but
you
try
to
keep
going
back
to
his
books
for
children
and
young
people,
including
Kofi
and
the
Rap
Battle
Summer
and
his
books
about
music.
Katy
0:32
We're
very
pleased
to
have
with
us
today
Jeffrey
Boakye,
who
wears
very
many
hats.
He
was
an
English
teacher
for
15
years.
He
is
now
a
senior
teaching
fellow
at
Manchester
University
Training
Teachers.
He
co-hosts
the
award-winning
Radio
4
series
Add
to
Playlist
and
pops
up
on
lots
of
other
programs
as
a
journalist.
And
he
is
also
the
author
of
nine
books,
six
of
which
are
for
children
and
young
people,
including
Kofi
and
the
Rap
Battle
Summer,
two
more
books
in
that
series,
and
two
non-fiction
books
about
music.
Welcome,
Jeffrey.
Jeffrey
1:05
That
is
quite
fantastic.
Katy
1:09
We
were
wondering
when
you
fill
in
those
forms
when
you
have
to
get
insurance
and
stuff,
what
do
you
actually
say?
Jeffrey
1:14
You
know
what?
I
get
to
choose.
Nowadays,
I
actually
put
author
because
I'm
trying
to
manifest
that
the
authorness
of
me
is
going
to
be
the
primary
thing
that
I
put
into
the
world.
So
I
quite
like
saying
I'm
an
author
first
and
foremost.
Um
sometimes
I
put
that
educator,
these
like
vague
terms.
But
writing
has
taken
up
a
lot
of
headspace.
Ali
1:33
You
probably
find
being
an
author
is
less
risky
in
all
of
those
things
than
being,
I
don't
know,
a
journalist.
But
a
journalist
feels
to
me
like
they
probably
put
you
in
the
highest
insurance
bracket.
Jeffrey
1:43
Definitely
nowadays,
yeah.
Katy
1:45
Author,
they
just
think
you're
sitting
quietly
somewhere.
Yeah,
yeah.
Jeffrey
1:49
You
are
in
control
of
your
own
destiny
to
some
extent,
but
then
the
books
need
to
sell,
and
that's
a
whole
other
conversation.
But
I
think
that
educator
is
actually
the
most
accurate
because
that's
the
thing
that
might
be
the
golden
thread
that
runs
throughout
most
of
my
work
if
you
want
to
get
into
it.
Ali
2:03
I
think
that
would
be
a
good
term
for
you
to
inhabit.
And
you
started
out
as
a
teacher.
Correct.
If
we
were
on
the
educator
theme,
and
your
first
books
were
aimed
at
adults
and
were
non-fiction.
What
made
you
want
to
write
fiction
for
young
people?
Jeffrey
2:18
Well,
actually,
I
think
look,
once
you
start
writing
in
a
commercial
sense
and
you
know,
getting
books
that
are
published,
you
find
yourself
mining
yourself
for
experiences
because
you
can't
write
out
of
context.
You
can't
just
sit
there
and
think,
I
want
to
write
something.
You
have
to
write
about
something.
I
know
it
sounds
obvious,
but
it's
really
important.
So
the
first
few
things
I
wanted
to
get
published
were
about
culture,
the
arts,
but
also
my
biography
to
some
extent.
And
I
didn't
realise,
but
everything
that
ended
up
going
into
the
Kofi
series,
for
example,
were
experiences
that
I'd
had
that
were
just
lying
dormant
in
me
that
I
thought
would
be
really
good
adventures
to
turn
into
something
for
kids.
And
I
also
love
stories,
and
I
hadn't
written
stories,
and
it
just
so
happened
that
the
ones
that
I
wanted
to
focus
on
were
kind
of
linked
to
my
own
experiences
growing
up
in
the
90s,
exploring
worlds
of
music,
hanging
out
with
my
mates.
So
that
was
the
germ
that
became
the
Kofi
series.
I
just
wanted
to
write
about
my
own
experiences
in
a
way
that
other
people,
namely
kids,
would
find
interesting.
I
think
that's
it,
yeah.
Katy
3:22
So
there
are
three
books
now,
aren't
there,
in
Kofi
series?
Jeffrey
3:25
The
Rap
Battle
Summer
Secret
Radio
Station
and
the
Brand
New
Vibe.
Katy
3:29
And
for
anyone
who
hasn't
discovered
them
yet,
can
you
just
give
us
an
overview
of
what
Kofi's
like,
what
he
gets
up
to,
what
happens
in
those
books?
Jeffrey
3:36
I'm
so
tempted
to
now
deliver
the
opening
50
seconds
of
what
I
do
when
I
introduce
Kofi
to
kids.
I
don't
know,
man.
I'm
really,
I'm
really
tempted.
Go
for
it.
All
right,
all
right.
Go
for
it.
Katy
3:49
Go
for
it.
Jeffrey
3:49
There
will
be
a
test
afterwards.
All
right,
here
we
go.
Katy
3:51
Okay.
Jeffrey
3:52
A
boy
called
Kofi
lives
on
an
estate
in
1994.
Isn't
that
great?
He
gets
into
trouble,
he
goes
to
school,
he
lives
at
home
with
his
siblings
too.
Now,
Kofi's
got
plans
and
thoughts
and
big
dreams
that
he
wants
to
come
true
through
money-making
schemes.
And
his
friend
Kelvin,
who
has
a
stutter,
reveals
that
his
mind
is
the
world's
eighth
wonder.
Kelvin
can
remember
anything.
And
Kofi's
mind
starts
to
fizz
and
ping.
Maybe
they
can
make
a
new
magazine
called
Paper
Jam,
but
there
ain't
no
screens.
Because,
like
I
said,
don't
forget,
1994,
no
internet.
So
Kofi
needs
to
find
a
way
to
get
new
truths
for
his
brother's
tape,
cassettes,
and
stove
begins
a
whole
school
obsession
worth
a
few
rounds
of
school
detention.
There's
magazines,
arcade
machines,
big
mysteries,
dramatic
scenes,
family
viewings
of
gladiators
on
a
TV
of
only
four
stations.
There's
coin
tricks,
a
trip
to
the
library.
Something
happens
there,
they'll
make
you
say
blime.
It's
funny,
tense,
gripping,
rhymey
with
a
kind
of
front
cover
that
makes
you
say
buy
me.
So
yeah,
welcome
to
the
rap
battle
summer,
a
90s
adventure,
like
no
other.
And
then
everyone
goes,
yay!
Ali
4:53
Very
good.
I'm
impressed.
Jeffrey
4:55
There
you
go.
That's
that's
copying
in
a
nutshell.
Ali
4:58
It
is
really
interesting,
and
it
is
cool
that
it
is
the
90s
when,
as
you
say,
there's
no
internet,
there's
none
of
this
stuff
that
you're
not
recorded,
all
those
stuff
that
happens,
nobody
knows
what's
really
going
on.
Jeffrey
5:10
You
know
what
it
is?
It's
like
for
us,
people
who
were
around
in
the
90s,
it
wasn't
that
long
ago.
But
to
these
young
audiences,
it
might
as
well
be
the
Tudor
times
or
something.
It
is
ancient
history,
and
it's
just
like
you
forget
how
very
simple
realities
of
life
are
actually
quite
magical
to
contemporary
children,
like
not
being
able
to
be
contacted
by
anyone
because
there's
no
mobile
phones
and
no
internet.
That
is
a
magical
thing.
Katy
5:38
I
like
the
landline
in
their
house.
Yeah,
and
you
really
remember
that,
and
particularly
before
having
fancy
extensions,
we're
slightly
older,
so
the
we're
80s,
but
there
was
definitely
a
point
in
the
80s
when
fancy
extensions
could
have
more
than
one
phone
in
the
house
because
at
one
point
you
just
had
one
phone,
and
then
maybe
there'd
be
an
upstairs
phone.
Jeffrey
5:58
So
if
you
want
to
talk
to
someone,
you
could
actually
go
in
private,
and
then
if
someone
else
picked
up
the
other
line,
they
would
hear
your
conversation.
Yeah,
yeah.
It's
just
like
little
things
like
that.
Ali
6:09
Yeah,
it's
a
lost
art,
isn't
it?
Being
able
to
pick
up
a
phone
and
listen
in
without
anyone
knowing.
Jeffrey
6:15
Many
lost
arts,
how
to
rewind
a
cassette
tape
with
nothing
but
a
pencil,
you
know,
or
a
Biro,
you
know,
all
these
things.
Yeah.
Ali
6:22
But
cassettes
are
coming
back,
apparently.
Jeffrey
6:25
I
I
feel
like
Gen
Z,
to
use
that
catch-all
term,
have
got
a
fascination
with
analogue
experience.
I
think
actually
every
generation
is
obsessed
with
the
analogue
of
the
past,
like
be
it
vinyl
or
something.
It's
always
gonna
happen
as
a
kickback
to
this
very,
very
digitized,
super
consumerist,
super
slick
online
world.
People
want
something
they
can
hold,
something
that's
got
value
in
and
of
itself,
something
that
isn't
gonna
give
you
paid
adverts.
So,
yeah,
there's
a
timeliness
to
the
Kofi
series
because
I
feel
like
30
years
is
a
good
gap
to
get
a
bit
misty-eyed
about
the
past
and
to
introduce
new
generations
to
like
their
nostalgia.
You
know
what
I
mean?
Ali
7:03
And
do
you
have
to
explain
it
to
them,
or
do
you
find
that
kids
do
you
get
No,
they
have
no
idea
what
you're
talking
about,
they
have
no
idea.
Jeffrey
7:09
If
you
say
landline
to
a
kid,
you
have
to
say
it
like
you're
introducing
a
whole
new
word
to
their
vocabulary,
like
say
landline
radio
station,
like
they
have
no
idea.
It
is
it's
really
funny
when
you
give
them
the
objects,
like
you
give
a
kid
a
Walkman
and
say,
make
that
work.
It's
so
funny
watching
them
try
to
make
it
work.
They
don't
know
you
have
to
pull
it
open
or
like
you
have
to
push
a
button,
they're
like
stroking
it
like
it's
touch
screen.
Ali
7:32
Imagine
what
they'd
do
if
the
cassette
tape
got
stuck
and
they
had
to
like
gently
pull
it
out
with
the
colours.
Oh
my
goodness,
yeah,
listen.
That's
what
I
mean.
Jeffrey
7:40
But
I
think
one
of
the
things
a
lot
of
a
lot
of
adult
readers,
you
know,
teachers,
librarians,
parents,
carers,
what
they
responded
to
well
with
the
Covey
series
is
that
there
is
this
intergenerational
conversation
that
it
opens
up.
And
I
think
that
that's
important
because
as
the
adults
of
the
world,
you
get
you
start
to
get
older
and
you
start
to
think
about
the
world
in
terms
of
what
it
used
to
be
like,
but
that
can
quickly
be
forgotten,
you
know,
and
it's
quite
nice
in
a
way
to
swim
in
the
recent
past
and
also
introduce
younger
people
to
join
you.
So
it's
a
bit
of
time
traveling
in
a
way.
Ali
8:16
Yeah,
it
also
makes
some
things
possible,
doesn't
it?
His
great
entrepreneurial
scheme
is
photocopying
this
magazine.
The
idea
now
of
doing
something
on,
I
mean,
obviously,
we
still
do
photocopies
are
the
great
survivors,
but
the
idea
of
photocopying
something
couldn't,
yeah.
Jeffrey
8:35
It's
like
you
couldn't
have
this
story
set
now.
Because
if
you
wanted
to
make
money
off
song
lyrics,
you'd
make
a
website
or
something.
But
the
idea
of
having
to
make
a
fanzine,
which
was
a
real
that's
a
real
cultural
thing.
Like
a
fanzine
is
a
serious
piece
of
culture
in
in
youth.
It's
kind
of
like
home
alone.
Like
the
movie
Home
Alone
wouldn't
work
nowadays
because
you
just
call
your
mum,
wouldn't
you?
Like,
I'm
at
home.
Ali
8:59
Yeah,
home
go
home.
Wherever
God
has
to
come
back
and
get
you.
Yeah,
it's
interesting
because
there
seems
to
be
I
was
in
it's
just
a
big
comic.
Forbidden
Planet,
yeah.
Yes,
and
they
was
it
gosh,
I
can't
remember.
They
have
a
full
uh
sort
of
display
of
fanzines
and
comics
that
are
like
really
short
run.
That
has
become
one
of
their
things,
and
I
think
it's
quite
interesting
that
there
is
that
move
back
to
the
sort
of
short-run,
quite
niche
and
fan-generated
material.
Jeffrey
9:29
I
get
excited.
I
love
comics,
by
the
way.
So
you
just
listed
my
adolescence
there,
just
in
Forbidden
Planet
and
Gosh.
I
remember
when
Gosh
was
just
opposite
the
British
Museum
back
in
the
old
days.
I
mean,
there's
a
reason
that
books
have
survived,
right?
By
all
logic,
books
should
have
gone
the
way
of
you
know
stone
tablets
by
now,
but
we
still
value
the
thing
that
has
been
created
and
you
can
hold,
like
it
still
holds
so
much
value.
And
I
think
the
fanzine
is
in
that
family
of
an
artifact
that
you
can
hold
and
experience
and
touch,
you
know.
I
think
it's
important.
Ali
10:03
Yeah,
it's
that
being
part
of
a
small
little
group,
isn't
it?
Because
it
is
limited,
it's
like
you're
in
in
the
no.
Because
football,
it
big
in
football
as
well,
was
fanzines,
like
for
your
your
tribe
in
your
football.
Yeah,
when
I
used
to
go
and
watch
Man
City,
I
can't
remember
what
it
was
called
now,
but
there
was
a
fanzine
then,
those
kind
of
things
that
were
literally
were
just
for
the
people
who
went
to
football,
and
it
wasn't
like
120,000
people
and
everyone
throwing
them
all
over
the
globe.
Jeffrey
10:30
It
was
the
people
actually
at
the
football
match
watching
it's
that
it's
that
slightly
obsessive
nerdiness,
but
commitment
to
the
tribe,
which
is
always
going
to
speak
to
young
people
because
you're
always
trying
to
find
your
place
in
the
world,
aren't
you?
So
yeah.
Ali
10:45
And
Kofi
has
that
particular
interest,
doesn't
he?
The
way
in
which
the
rap
battles
become
the
thing
in
the
school,
and
then
later
on,
once
once
the
school
bans
them,
inevitably
bans
it,
it
goes
bigger.
In
terms
of
the
story,
did
with
the
trilogy,
did
you
map
that
all
out
from
the
beginning
or
did
you
know
it
was
going
to
be
a
trilogy
from
the
outset?
Jeffrey
11:05
My
original
plan,
which
I
may
well
stick
to,
is
I
wanted
to
write
seven
of
them.
I
wanted
to
do
take
Kofi
from
the
cusp
of
secondary
school
all
the
way
through
to
late
adolescence,
which
would
mean
coming
of
age,
more
or
less,
in
the
year
2000.
So
I
wanted
it
to
be
this
kind
of
like
millennial
story.
Critically,
he's
basically
my
age,
and
so
he'll
be
about
18
when
you're
starting
to
get
the
internet,
you're
starting
to
get
mobile
phones,
and
you're
starting
to
see
a
development
of
all
these
subcultures
into
mainstream
culture.
And
that
was
the
plan
to
chart
that
through
his
time
at
school
with
this
series
of
adventures,
you
know,
seven
of
them.
So
that's
still
in
my
head.
It
just
means
that
I've
got
four
more
to
write
if
I'm
gonna
do
this.
Like
I
need
to
get
on
with
it.
Ali
11:54
You
need
to
fit
that
in
somewhere
in
amongst
everything.
Yeah,
yeah.
And
obviously,
one
of
the
things
we
listed
when
we
introduced
you
was
about
music,
which
is
really
central
in
the
Kofi
books,
and
it's
obviously
really
clearly
something
that's
really
important
to
you.
So,
were
you
conscious
of
passing
that
enthusiasm
on
through
the
books?
And
was
it
something
you
used
when
you
were
teaching
as
well?
Jeffrey
12:14
Always.
I
mean,
I've
I've
always
got
the
same
advice
to
new
teachers,
which
sounds
super
obvious,
but
it's
often
missed
when
they
when
you're
too
busy
trying
to
be
a
good
teacher.
Bring
your
passion
to
the
classroom.
If
you
love
something,
you
must
bring
it
with
you
into
every
room
you
go
into
because
your
enthusiasm
is
not
only
gonna
energize
you,
but
it's
gonna
light
other
people
up.
And
it
doesn't
matter
if
they
share
the
passion
or
not.
So
I've
always
been
really
enthusiastic
about
words,
music,
lyrics,
poetry.
And
I
was
lucky
enough
to
have
two
older
sisters,
which
meant
that
I'd
recommend
if
you
haven't
got
two
older
sisters,
go
find
some.
It's
really,
really
good
because
I
was
looking
at
the
world
through
the
eyes
of
these
two
adolescent
young
women.
So
I
was
like
the
younger
brother
that
was
exploring
all
of
these
landscapes
through
them.
So
their
music
became
music
that
I
was
listening
to.
So
I
was
exploring
worlds
of
like
amazing
genres
that
really
weren't
aimed
at
me,
you
know,
dance
hall
music
from
Jamaica
and
RB
and
hip-hop
and
soul,
and
a
lot
of
these
musical
movements.
They
had
these
big
eras
in
the
80s
and
90s
that
looking
back,
it
was
like
watershed
moments
when
something
happened.
So
all
of
that
has
always
been
sitting
in
me.
It's
a
lot
of
black
music
as
well.
So
my
kind
of
cultural
heritage
is
being
shaped
by
this,
by
these
musical
moments,
and
all
of
that
definitely
comes
into
my
teaching,
and
it
would
inevitably
come
into
my
into
my
writing
too,
because
I
can
see
not
only
the
joy
it
can
bring
to
people,
but
there's
a
lot
to
learn
socially
and
culturally
about
these
musical
moments.
That's
the
thing
about
music
that
I
really
love.
It
it
mirrors
an
age,
it
questions
an
age,
it
reflects
an
age,
it
invites
you
to
understand
what's
going
on
through
music,
culture,
the
conversations
that
artists
are
having.
Yeah,
yeah,
yeah.
Really,
really
exciting.
Ali
14:06
That
was
what
musical
truth
was,
wasn't
it?
It
was
that
kind
of
black
British
history
through
music,
which
was
excellent,
and
then
musical
world,
which
followed
it
as
well.
Jeffrey
14:13
Yeah,
definitely.
I
really
wanted
with
musical
truth
because
it
was
around
that
like
2020,
2021,
that
Black
Lives
Matter
uptick
during
the
pandemic,
and
people
were
really
starting
to
think
about
well,
how
are
we
tackling
racism?
And
I
remember
making
a
making
a
spider
diagram
of
all
the
things
that
I
could
do
that
might
help
get
people
to
understand
racism
within
the
remit
of
my
sort
of
control.
So
I
thought,
what
could
I
write
as
a
journalist?
What
am
I
doing
as
an
educator?
And
I
wrote
a
tiny
thing,
a
book
for
children
about
race
history,
brackets,
and
music.
And
that
was
musical
truth,
just
that
one
idea.
And
I
thought
I
could,
I
could
probably
do
that
because
I
like
music
and
I
know
a
little
bit
about
how
racism
operates,
and
I
think
it's
important
enough
to
try
this.
And
that
was
the
germ
of
that
idea.
Ali
15:08
It
works
really
well
for
us
because
we
we
do
quite
a
lot
of
work
with
our
in
with
our
book
clubs
in
schools
hat
on
in
people
referral
units,
amazing,
and
places
where
people,
you
know,
they
might
not
want
to
pick
up
our
whole
book,
but
actually
books
that
might
speak
to
them
or
have
chapters
that
they
could
read,
and
then
you
like,
and
here's
the
music
you
can
listen
to,
and
then
read
about
it
and
get
a
bit
of
history
all
in
one.
Jeffrey
15:29
That's
amazing.
All
power
to
you.
That's
that's
incredible.
That's
that's
some
of
the
most
important
work
there
is
as
well.
You're
working
with
some
of
the
most
marginalized
and
excluded
kids,
the
ones
that
don't
make
it
through
mainstream.
That's
uh
that's
huge
to
me
because
I
think
that's
again,
as
someone
that's
taught
lots
of
different
kids.
Some
kids
really
struggle
with
academia,
it
doesn't
work
for
them.
Mainstream
school
doesn't
work
for
them.
And
when
I
wrote
Musical
Truth,
I
wanted
to
make
sure
it
was
accessible.
And
the
easiest
thing
to
do
is
to
put
a
song
on.
Like,
you
don't
even
need
to
know
what
the
song
is,
you're
gonna
hear
it,
you're
gonna
feel
something.
So,
in
a
weird
sort
of
way,
it
was
a
bit
of
a
DJ
move
as
well.
Like,
like,
what
am
I
gonna
play?
And
then
what
can
I
say
about
what
I'm
playing?
Ali
16:11
And
there's
quite
a
few
books
now
that
have
playlists
and
I
think.
Yeah,
yeah.
It
was
we're
kind
of
finding
that
a
bit
with
books.
I
gotta
think,
well,
I'll
remember
in
a
minute,
as
we
say.
Fortunately,
we
can
edit
this.
I'll
remember
in
a
minute
the
one
that
I'm
thinking
of
that's
got
our
own
playlist
with
the
book.
Oh,
yeah.
Jeffrey
16:26
I
don't
know
that
I
want
to
say
like
Queenie
by
Candice
Williams
has
got
a
playlist
attached
to
it.
There's
a
few
other
books,
fiction
and
non-fiction.
I
mean,
my
first
book,
whole
title,
was
a
playlist,
it
was
like
70
odd
songs,
and
I
just
wrote
about
each
one.
So,
yeah,
there's
there's
something
very
inviting
about
a
playlist,
like
a
mixtape
almost,
which
I'm
not
do
people
still
do
mixtapes?
I
don't
know.
Is
it
a
thing?
Katy
16:52
I
didn't
know.
I
have
a
box
of
my
husband's
mixtapes
in
our
loft.
We
do
not
have
a
device
that
they
could
be
played
on.
Wow.
Oh,
I
do.
He
will
not
let
me
get
rid
of
them.
Jeffrey
17:03
Ama zing.
Are
they
to
you?
Is
this
like
the
Katy
17:06
no,
they're
not.
They're
because
they
pre-we've
known
each
other
since
the
late
90s,
but
it
predates
that.
Wow.
Because
by
then
everyone
was
moving
on
to
CDs,
so
they
are
from
pre
our
knowing
each
other.
Jeffrey
17:20
That's
incredible.
Ali
17:21
Yeah,
but
one
from
my
husband,
I've
got
a
love
mixtape,
bless
him.
Jeffrey
17:26
It's
very,
very
cute.
Ali
17:27
Yeah,
I've
made
it
to
a
Spotify
list,
which
is
quite
cool.
Jeffrey
17:30
That's
very
sweet.
Ali
17:31
Yeah,
because
that's
what
everyone's
doing
now
is
playlists,
isn't
it?
Yeah,
yeah.
Jeffrey
17:35
Playlists
are
essentially
mixtapes,
but
they
sort
of
haven't
got
an
end.
You
just
keep
on
adding
to
them.
Katy
17:40
Definitely
having
that
ability
to
go,
look,
here
is
a
book,
and
here
is
the
playlist
that
goes
with
it,
with
them
both
Musical
Truth
and
Musical
World
has
been
a
great
way
into
them
for
young
people
just
uh
for
everyone,
but
also
for
those
young
people
who
may
be
a
bit
skeptical
that
they're
gonna
enjoy
a
book.
Jeffrey
17:57
Yeah,
yeah.
I'm
really,
really
pleased
to
hear
that.
And
and
I
keep
telling
people
as
well,
like,
I
write
books
in
ways
that
I
hope
people
just
copy
the
format.
Like,
I'm
I
I
really
want
to
see
a
bunch
of
musical
worlds
out
there
because
that's
my
list,
but
everyone
would
have
a
different
list.
Yeah,
and
no
one
takes
them
up
on
the
offer.
I
was
like,
no,
go
just
copy
what
I've
done,
do
your
version,
and
then
let's
just
get
a
load
of
them
out
there.
Yeah,
have
the
IP,
just
call
it
musical
world
my
edition
or
whatever.
Katy
18:23
You
wrote
very
powerfully.
I've
been
listening
to
the
audio
version
of
it,
which
is
quite
odd
because
you're
in
my
head
now,
your
voice.
But
in
I
heard
what
you
said
about
your
experiences
as
a
black
teacher
and
some
of
the
inherent
racism
in
the
education
system
in
schools
and
classrooms,
how
you
experienced
that,
how
you
saw
that
being
experienced
by
your
pupils.
In
the
Kofi
trilogy,
it
is
essentially
a
very
funny
book,
but
you
don't
shy
away
from
those
issues
around
race
and
identity
and
inequality.
And
there
are
points
in
the
first
book
where
Kofi's
uncle
gets
into
an
altercation
with
a
police
officer,
which
is
clearly
a
racially
charged
situation.
How
important
was
it
to
be
really
upfront
and
having
those
in
the
books?
And
how
did
you
what
do
you
position
those
for
young
people
to
open
up
some
of
those
discussions?
Jeffrey
19:17
Yeah,
I
think
that
I
mean,
I
always
center
truth
and
joy
in
my
writing.
So
those
two
things
have
to
be
happening,
and
the
truth
of
someone's
lived
experiences
is
gonna
shape
their
reality.
So
I'm
not
trying
to
like
crowbar
um,
you
know,
a
political
message
into
my
books
or
a
cautionary
tale
or
a
warning.
But
the
reality
is
if
you're
growing
up
in
an
urban
environment
in
the
1990s
in
a
community
which
is
populated
largely
by
immigrant
communities
of
various
diasporas,
you're
gonna
have
an
unfair
structural
proximity
to
social
deprivation,
to
lack
of
opportunity,
to
maybe
high
rates
of
unemployment,
to
interactions
with
the
police,
for
example,
that
are
gonna
be
less
than
favourable.
And
these
are
realities.
Like
if
you
look
at
history,
that's
what
it
was
like
in
Brixton
in
the
1980s,
where
I
grew
up.
That's
what
it
was
like
in
Notting
Hill
in
the
1950s.
So
that's
just
the
reality
of
Kofi's
world.
And
at
the
core
of
it,
he's
got
this
beautiful,
loving
family.
There's
a
reason
why
Kofi's
family
is
like
watertight
and
loving,
because
I
didn't
want
it
to
be
like
he's
got
something
in
his
life
which
is
completely
falling
apart
and
he's
having
to
fight
through
that.
He's
got
a
really
good
foundation,
his
communities
work,
yeah,
but
the
context
around
that,
there
are
structural
problems,
and
this
is
the
truth
of
life
for
many
people
in
many
different
ways.
So
I
feel
like
what
that
allowed
me
to
do
was
from
a
writerly
point
of
view,
it
allowed
me
to
have
a
very
clear
antagonist,
which
didn't
have
to
be
this
like
evil
character.
There
are
very
few,
it's
it's
quite
an
easy
thing
to
do
to
create
an
even
antagonist,
you
know.
Lots
of
writers
would
do
that
because
you
need
one,
someone
who's
just
like
you
need
them
squashed.
I
create
the
antagonism
in
the
realities
of
of
life,
like
the
lack
of
opportunity,
the
education
system,
and
its
mistrust
of
black
boys,
the
way
that
the
police
might
be
suspicious
of
black
communities,
black
men
in
particular,
and
how
that
plays
out.
That's
the
antagonist.
And
these
are
the
things
that
Kofi
is
wrestling
with.
He's
trying
to,
how
am
I
gonna
become
this
millionaire
that
I
want
to
be
in
this
world?
How
am
I
gonna,
how
am
I
gonna
transcend,
you
know,
these
flats
and
it
it's
in
a
weird
sort
of
way,
without
turning
it
into
a
a
thesis
or
a
dissertation.
It's
the
same
stuff
that
I
discuss
in
my
nonfiction
for
adults.
It
just
so
happens
that
I
put
it
into
a
really
adventurous,
funny,
charming
musical
story
about
friendship.
So
you're
getting
in
and
out
of
scrapes.
Yeah.
Katy
21:57
Yeah.
No,
he
does
get
into
a
lot
of
scrapes.
Does
he
can't
help
me?
Jeffrey
22:01
He's
learning.
Kelsey's
learning.
Ali
22:03
It'll
be
fine.
Jeffrey
22:05
Yeah.
And
he's
nothing
like
me
either.
I
I
was
more
like
Kelvin,
his
very
quiet,
bookish
sidekick.
That's
kind
of
more
my
vibe.
Ali
22:14
And
I
think
in
I
hear
what
you
said,
you
talk
about
there
aren't
that
many
characters
that
exist
in
children's
books.
Quite
often
they're
the
sidekick,
they're
not
the
main
protagonist
in
that
group
of
friends.
And
do
you
think
that
is
changing?
I
know
the
reflecting
reality
research
changes
all
the
time.
And
that's
the
last
one
they
did
sort
of
said
it
had
gone
down.
Jeffrey
22:32
Yeah,
it's
rolling
back
again.
Uh
whenever
you
see
a
swell
in
you
know
representation
or
a
kind
of
push
for
inclusion
and
diversity,
it
is
like
the
waves
on
the
shore.
It
kind
of
rushes
forward
and
it
pulls
back
again.
And
unfortunately,
we're
seeing
sort
of
like
lower
levels
of
representation
in
terms
of
racialized
diversity
in
mainstream
publishing
than
even
before
2020.
I
again,
you
know,
part
of
the
reason
why
I
write
the
books
I
write,
because
I
could
write
about
anything.
I
don't
have
to
write
about
race.
I
could
write
about
anything,
but
it's
because
I
do
feel
like
it's
important
to
have
a
diverse
range
of
lived
experiences
across
the
piece.
It's
very
important.
Every
protected
characteristic
has
a
perspective
on
the
world
that
everyone
can
learn
from.
We
need
a
range
of
sexualities,
a
range
of
backgrounds,
a
range
of
ethnicities,
a
range
of
neurodivergences,
all
of
it
makes
for
better
reading.
And
I
and
it
frustrates
me
when
I
see
the
mainstream
defaulting
to
a
single
narrative
over
and
over
again,
purely
for
that
reason
that
we
all
we
can
all
learn
so
much
more.
Katy
23:40
Why
do
you
think
it
has
gone
back?
I
mean,
not
just
about
having
black
authors
and
visible
black
characters,
main
characters.
It's
also
gone
back
on
some
of
those
other
aspects
of
diversity
too,
and
that
there
was
a
real
push,
and
now
we're
retreating
again.
What
is
it?
I
mean
it's
really
simple.
It's
really
puzzling.
Jeffrey
23:58
It's
really
puzzling,
but
it's
really
simple.
The
status
quo
wants
to
win.
And
the
status
quo
hate
to
break
it
to
anyone
who
didn't
know
who's
listening
in,
but
we
live
in
a
very
heteronormative
capitalist
patriarchy,
you
know,
post-colonial
white
supremacist
capitalist
patriarchy.
And
that
means
that
there
are
certain
not
identities,
but
certain
power,
power
bases
that
have
control
and
will
retain
control,
and
our
world
is
shaped
along
these
lines,
and
it
does
not
want
to
change.
So
anything
that
nudges
a
change
starts
to
feel
like
it's
gonna
destroy
the
world.
So
people
want
things
to
be
as
they
have
been.
And
so
it's
safer,
ironically,
to
default
to
what
was
already
there.
In
something
like
literature,
oh
my
goodness,
it
does
feel
like
you're
shaking
the
table
when
you
start
to
introduce
new
ideas,
narratives,
perspectives
that
have
been
marginalized
because
it
is
a
bit
of
a
challenge,
you
know.
It
was
illegal
to
be
gay
in
this
country
until
1967.
I
mean,
so
when
you
start
centering
LGBTQ
plus
narratives,
you're
shaking
the
table
a
little
bit
because
you're
saying
this
thing
that
was
once
seen
as
abnormal,
criminalized,
now
deserves
attention.
Some
people
don't
want
that.
They'd
rather
have
the
safety
of
a
straitjacket
that
they
were
born
into
rather
than
to
have
some
new
light
shone
in
their
eyes
that
feels
a
bit
uncomfortable.
But
we
all
know,
or
we
should
all
know,
or
we
could
all
know,
that
these
new
perspectives
are
incredibly
beneficial
to
everyone.
And
actually,
that's
how
we
go
forward.
You
know,
it's
important
that
we
get
more
perspectives,
more
narratives.
And
I
suppose
that's
how
I
see
it.
Sorry,
I'll
give
you
a
long
answer
to
a
short
question
there.
Katy
25:57
It
feels
like
the
younger
generation
will
come
through
and
change.
Jeffrey
26:00
You
always
hope
so.
Katy
26:02
But
actually,
you
start
hearing
things
about
the
younger
generation
being
actually
quite
split
and
split
even
on
gender
lines
where
women
are
still
really
quite
progressive
and
the
men
are
going
down
a
much
more
traditionalist
route
and
going
backwards.
Because
it
feels
somehow
that
demographics
should
change
it
because
this
generation
coming
into
the
workplace
now
and
making
decisions
is
so
much
more
diverse
than
the
one
that
was
coming
in
in
the
eight
eighties
when
we
started.
But
yeah,
frustrating.
Jeffrey
26:30
It's
not
gonna
happen
by
accident.
I
feel
like
that's
the
thing
that
people
assume
that
we
just
get
more
progressive
over
time.
Like,
oh,
we
now
know
Pluto
is
not
a
planet,
everyone
knows
that.
Great.
Like
we
just
think
that
everyone
Katy
26:42
I'm
still
holding.
Jeffrey
26:43
I
am
as
well.
My
very
energetic
mother
just
served
us
nine
something.
There's
got
to
be
key
for
something.
Anyway,
so
we
just
assume
that
everyone's
like
getting
more
uh
more
aware
of
being
on
the
right
side
of
history,
but
it's
not
true,
you
know.
Look
at
who
influences
young
people
and
social
media.
Look
at
the
the
rise
of
the
alt-right
and
the
manosphere
and
the
and
the
racism
and
misogyny
you
see,
low
key
in
like
edgy
social
media
culture,
but
also
very
high
key
in
some
of
the
language
spouted
by
leading
politicians.
I
mean,
there's
a
mainstreaming,
absolutely
of
these
of
these
ideas
that
is
always
going
to
influence
kids
because
kids
are
like,
who's
powerful?
I'll
be
like
that.
And
that's
how
we
socialize.
So
it's
really
interesting.
Yeah,
it's
why
I
made
sure
Kofi's
world
had
very
simple,
strong
female
characters,
really
important.
Yeah,
it
you
know,
he
had
to
have
that,
and
because
otherwise
it's
a
bit
of
a
boy,
boy,
boy,
he's
doing
but
no,
strong
female
characters.
Katy
27:46
I
love
his
sister,
yeah.
I
love
his
sister.
Jeffrey
27:48
She's
saying
she's
always
right
as
well.
She's
one
of
these
people,
like
every
middle
child,
always
right
about
everything.
Katy
27:54
I
imagine
that
she
has
a
really
good
side
eye
as
well.
Jeffrey
27:57
Yeah,
definitely,
definitely.
And
she's
just
as
naughty
as
Kofi
as
well,
but
just
kind
of
like
hides
it.
Katy
28:02
But
she's
better
at
getting
away
with
it.
I
think
the
moment
when
he,
for
reasons
that
I
can't
remember,
ends
up
in
her
school
uniform
and
swept
up
with
a
bunch
of
girls
by
mistake
and
in
an
all-girls
school,
very
classic.
Jeffrey
28:18
Yeah,
yeah,
he
ends
up
on
a
school
trip
at
his
sister's
school
in
his
sister's
school
uniform.
Katy
28:24
And
and
and
she
demonstrates
that
actually
she's
running
circles
around
that
school
system
because
she
knows
exactly
how
to
get
him
out
of
there.
Yeah,
and
any
pretense
that
anyone
else
was
in
charge
of
the
systems
and
ins
and
outs
of
that
school
gets
go
out
the
window
because
she
has
got
that
thing.
Jeffrey
28:41
I
mean,
it's
no
accident.
I
told
you,
I've
got
two
older
sisters.
I
I've
seen
how
it
works,
man.
It's
like
they
were
running
the
show.
I
was
like,
those
two
girls
are
running
this
whole
situation,
and
the
whole
wearing
girls'
uniform
again,
based
on
real
events,
because
my
sisters
did
used
to
dress
me
up.
There
was
nothing
else
to
do.
It
was
the
90s,
there
were
only
four
channels
on
TV,
and
they'll
dress
me
up.
I
can
remember
it
at
one
time.
They
did
my
hair
and
everything,
they
put
extensions
in.
It's
all
about
six
hours,
you
know.
Ali
29:10
You
were
very
tolerant.
It
was
a
time
when
you
had
to
make
your
own
in
enjoyment.
You
you
when
you
were
bored,
you
go,
like,
what
can
we
do?
Which
is
why,
you
know,
up
to
my
street
was
one
of
the
nothing
else
to
do.
Jeffrey
29:21
Let's
just
dress
them
up
as
a
girl.
Yeah,
right,
cool.
How
long
have
we
got?
Ali
29:25
All
day,
all
day
and
the
entire
weekend.
And
at
the
the
inclusive
books
for
children
awards,
there
are
some
beams
of
light
in
in
amongst
all
this,
and
awards
like
that
we
do,
you
know,
often
opportunity
to
shine
a
light
on
loads
of
different
things
that's
happening
to
raise
the
profile
of
all
sorts
of
different
books.
Do
you
think
that
is
enough,
or
how
else
can
we,
as
people
within
the
space,
what
else
should
we
be
doing
to
build
on
this
and
make
it
a
wider
movement?
Jeffrey
29:55
The
IBC
is
a
great
example
of
why
inclusion
is
important
beyond
just
a
tokenistic
sort
of
um
performative,
I'm
a
good
person.
Because
what
you
get
with
inclusive
books
for
children
awards
is
you
get
this
curation
of
books,
and
the
quality
of
those
books
is
incredibly
high.
Not
only
because
the
long
listing
is
so
vigorous
and
the
short
listing
criteria
is
asking
so
much
of
these
books
because
it's
an
award,
but
also
because
it
recognizes
that
the
content
of
these
books
is
having
to
do
more
work
just
to
exist
in
the
space.
So
if
I'm
writing
a
book
about
a
dog
and
poo,
right,
of
which
there
are
many,
right?
And
I'm
not
having
a
go
at
books
about
um
is
fine.
And
I
could
sell
that
book,
and
it's
uncomplicated
because
it's
not
challenging
the
status
quo,
like
I
mentioned
earlier.
The
minute
I
write
a
book
about
identity,
about
what
it
means
to
be
Muslim
growing
up
in
Britain,
about
what
it's
like
to
have
a
visible
limb
difference,
these
things
that
are
socially
maybe
slightly
less
comfortable
to
talk
about,
that
book
is
having
to
do
extra
work
because
it's
not
only
shaping
these
narratives,
it's
also
having
to
present
them
in
a
way
that
the
mainstream
audiences
will
understand
and
want
to
consume.
And
it's
a
good
book
as
well.
So
the
quality
of
the
IBC
long
list
is
so
high.
Like,
I
cannot
stress
that
enough.
That's
why
that
I
really
bang
the
drum
for
IBC,
because
I
can
safely
say
that
you
won't
find
a
better
collection
of
books
written
by
people
like
contemporary
writers
and
illustrators
who
are
doing
some
of
the
best
work
out
there
now.
And
the
frustrating
part
is
that
the
best
doesn't
always
rise
to
the
top
if
we're
talking
about
commercial.
You
know,
it's
usually
what
you
find
in
the
supermarket
shelves,
the
same
names.
You
look
at
the
top
10,
it's
like
nothing's
been
written
the
past
hundred
years.
It's
like
you're
gonna
see
the
same
names
over
and
over
again,
and
it's
the
big
names
that
get
more
space,
and
it's
an
upward
spiral
for
them
and
a
downward
spiral
for
everyone
else.
So
I
think
inclusivity
is
something
that
actually
it
offers
texture
and
richness
that
you
can
miss
if
you've
got
a
single
narrative,
if
that
makes
any
sense.
And
I
think
that's
that's
the
special
part.
And
these
books
aren't
it's
not
just
like
positive
discrimination,
they're
not
there
because
they're
inclusive,
they're
there
because
they're
good.
And
they
also
happen
to
be
books
about
quote
unquote
marginalized
points
of
view.
Katy
32:30
Yeah,
I
think
that
thing
about
them
being
appealing
to
everyone,
because
I
think
there
was
a
stage
where
there
was
almost
a
sense
of,
oh,
we
we
need
to
have
a
book
that
is
about
this
particular
specific
characteristic,
but
it
was
sort
of
representation
almost
for
the
sake
of
representation
rather
than
actually
got
really
good.
Jeffrey
32:49
Exactly,
exactly.
Katy
32:51
And
it
it
works
on
all
sorts
of
different
levels.
We've
been
taking
the
winner
of
the
older
category
in
the
IBC,
it's
younger
readers,
Shante
Timothy's
supernova,
which
is
it's
a
great,
it's
fun,
it's
a
graphic
novel,
it's
Ali
33:09
bonkers.
Jeffrey
33:09
Yeah,
exactly.
Ali
33:10
Yeah,
it's
science-y,
it's
just
great.
We've
been
taking
it
into
schools.
We
did
a
really
big
event
with
a
whole
load
of
what
was
it,
mid
primary
school
kids,
and
she
does
a
thing
where
she
gets
both
the
characters
and
then
your
team
nova
or
team
pink
thing
is
whatever
the
possible,
uh,
and
then
asking
kids
what's
got
plastic
in
it,
including
you
know,
tea
bags,
yeah,
which
is
great,
and
now
just
a
really
interesting
way
in.
But
as
you
say,
the
story
is
the
most
important
thing.
Jeffrey
33:37
Yeah,
yeah.
It's
really
it'll
be
very
disheartening
to
think
that
people
would
pick
up
a
book
like
Supernova
and
think,
oh,
this
isn't
for
me
because
this
is
aimed
at
black
girls,
and
I'm
not
a
black
girl,
so
I
can't
read
it.
That
would
be
really,
really
disheartening.
And
I'm
I'm
hoping
that
people
don't
look
at
books
like
that
and
think,
oh,
I'm
not
this
character,
so
it's
not
for
me.
Because
as
a
big
reader
myself,
and
I'm
I'm
a
reader
from
from
the
1980s
when
you'd
you
read
everything
that
I
I
didn't
see
myself
represented
in
lots
of
books,
and
I
was
reading
about
people
who
were
definitely
not
like
me.
I
was
reading
Judy
Bloom
two
sisters,
remember?
So
I
know
you
can
get
a
lot
from
a
book
that
is
about
someone
who
is
not
like
you,
and
I've
carried
that
into
my
adult
life.
I'm
often
reminding
myself,
Jeff,
you
can't
just
read
stuff
that
you
already
know
about
or
written
by
people
who
share
your
lived
experience.
Go
and
read
that
book
about
what
it's
like
to
be
a
Korean
storefront
worker,
you
know,
in
a
very
sexist
community
because
I'm
not
Korean,
I'm
not
a
woman,
I
don't
work,
you
know,
and
I
learn
lots
from
all
these
things.
So
really
important.
Katy
34:50
So
we've
been
running
a
whole
series
on
the
so-called
reading
crisis.
Ali
34:54
I
don't
really
like
calling
it
that,
but
we
called
it
that
because
obviously
that's
Jeffrey
34:57
well
a
lot
of
people
would
would
say
it
is
a
crisis,
but
yeah,
I
know
what
you
mean.
Ali
35:01
Do
you
recognize
that
picture?
And
what
should
we
be
doing
about
it?
Well,
I
think
um
you
have
to
cut
it
back,
right?
Jeffrey
35:07
To
go
as
far
back
to
the
core
of
the
issue
as
you
can
to
understand
what
it
is
you're
even
looking
at.
So,
what
is
the
crisis?
People
aren't
reading.
All
right,
people
aren't
reading
what
people
aren't
reading
books,
all
right.
Cool.
So
is
the
issue
with
books,
is
it
an
issue
with
the
act
of
reading?
All
right,
has
that
become
something
which
we're
just
growing
out
of
as
a
species?
All
right,
that's
a
scary
thought.
Well,
it
can't
be
because
what
do
people
do
all
the
time?
They
consume
stories.
Like,
hello,
people
sit
there
and
watch
Netflix
like
for
hours.
Like
cinemas,
yeah,
they
make
a
film
in
Hollywood,
it
costs
$400
million,
and
then
literally
that
same
weekend
they
get
their
money
back
because
people
love
a
story.
So
this
is
interesting.
People
might
not
be
reading
books,
but
people
are
addicted
to
stories.
So
then
the
question
becomes
well,
what
are
these
stories?
And
actually,
what
is
our
publishing
uh
uh
industry
doing
to
uh
to
satisfy
people's
need
for
story?
Which
stories
are
we
telling?
And
where
do
people
meet
books?
Uh
well,
then
we
get
to
education,
because
when
you're
at
school,
this
is
where
you
meet
literature.
What
are
we
using
literature
for
in
schools?
Ah,
we
might
be
using
it
to
get
through
these
assessment
hurdles
a
bit
too
much.
We
might
have
gone
down
that
route
a
little
bit
too
much.
So
we
use
our
books
to
to
judge
your
phonics
and
to
get
your
sats
and
to
get
your
GCSEs.
And
is
that
the
purpose
of
books?
Well,
no,
because
when
people
queue
up
to
watch
the
new
Marvel
movie
or
to
watch
nine
hours
of
a
box
set
on
Netflix,
they're
not
doing
it
to
pass
an
exam,
they're
doing
it
because
they
want
to
experience
something.
So
you
go
back
a
little
bit
and
think,
well,
are
we
exploring
literature
for
the
right
reasons
at
a
young
enough
age?
Where
do
the
books
come
from?
Is
it
an
accident
that
the
kids
that
get
read
to,
you
know,
from
the
age
of
zero
up
to
three
just
happen
to
have
bigger
vocabularies
and
do
better
in
school
anyway?
Like,
is
that
an
accident?
No.
So
I
feel
like
the
crisis
isn't
about
just
people
aren't
reading,
it's
about
well,
what
how
are
we
setting
up
literature?
What
is
literature
for?
What
are
the
these
links
between
these
spaces
that
are
connected?
Schools,
libraries,
libraries
are
closing.
It's
scary
how
many
libraries
are
closing.
I've
done
some
research,
it's
really
terrifying.
Schools,
libraries,
retailers.
So
these
places
could
speak
to
each
other.
And
then
you
get
these
beautiful
third
spaces,
like
a
lot
of
the
work
that
you've
described
to
me.
It's
just
it's
these
people
are
so
important.
Your
librarians,
your
youth
workers,
your
social
workers,
your
alternative
provisions.
They
operate
in
these
spaces
where
they
can
see
things
that
maybe
other
people
can't
see.
You
can't
go
into
a
pro
and
be
like,
right,
we're
doing
the
GCSE
syllabus
on
this,
this,
it's
not
gonna
work.
But
you
can
say
we're
gonna
have
a
look
at
this
music,
we're
gonna
do
this
spoken
word
poetry,
we're
gonna
look
at
it's
all
literature.
So
I
feel
like
there
just
needs
to
be
a
bit
more
joined
up
thinking,
and
that's
often
the
thing
that's
lacking
the
most,
actually.
Someone
looking
at
something
with
perspective
and
going,
All
right,
what
are
the
pieces
we
need
to
get
right
here?
You
know,
the
the
panic
is
easy,
but
the
actual
take
a
step
back
and
look
at
the
whole
picture
that
takes
a
little
bit
more,
you
know.
Ali
38:26
And
they
kind
of
panic
around,
you
know,
book
ownership
and
all
of
those
things,
and
whilst
also
closing
libraries.
Exactly.
Yeah,
holding
both
those
things
like
people
don't
have
access
to
books,
exactly
all
their
libraries.
So
well,
that's
why
they
got
books,
you
know,
and
things
like
yeah,
you
know,
books,
what
was
it
called?
Sure
start
and
things
like
that.
Yeah,
and
then
and
then
they're
reopening
them
again
now.
But
what
they
call
they
call
something
else,
aren't
they?
With
start
in
the
name,
but
isn't
sure
start.
Yeah,
but
those
places
where
you
might
meet
books,
but
also
if
you've
got
a
generation
of
kids
who
aren't
who
weren't
read
to
and
books
aren't
interesting
to
them
and
now
they're
having
kids,
yes,
it's
then
that's
the
kind
of
sort
of
missing
fit.
Jeffrey
39:08
A
lot
of
adults
aren't
reading.
I
think
that
reading
for
pleasure
is
just
generally
on
a
decline,
which
is
a
little
bit
scary.
You
then
there
might
even
need
to
be
some
level
of
promotion
of
reading
to
young
to
to
children,
like
just
not
in
a
kind
of
like
nanny
state,
like
you
know,
you
will
read,
you
know,
now
you
must
take
this
book
and
read
it.
Maybe
a
little
bit
of
that,
but
just
to
explain
to
people
why
it's
so
valuable,
you
know.
Because
if
you
don't
know,
you
might
not
be
realizing
that
you're
doing
your
kid
a
disservice.
Yeah,
yeah.
Katy
39:38
If
you
don't
want
to
make
it
sound
like
eating
your
vegetables,
really
close
to
Sally.
Need
to
eat
more
broccoli
and
book
before.
Ali
39:46
Well,
we
I
mean,
I
always
laugh
that
you
know,
I
could
have
sat
my
daughter's
A
levels
for
her
because
the
checks
don't
change.
Yeah,
yeah,
yeah.
So
listen,
quick
question.
We'll
let
you
go
because
we've
taken
up.
No,
no,
no,
this
is
fine.
What's
next?
What
are
you
all
right?
Jeffrey
40:03
How
how
much
can
I
say?
Katy
40:04
Uh
we
love
we
we've
heard
rumors
that
you
have
an
adult
book
coming
out.
Jeffrey
40:10
This
is
true.
I
have
an
adult
book.
Um,
it's
Crime.
Crime
fiction.
And
it's
the
biggest
thing.
I
like
crime
fiction.
We
love
that.
I
didn't
set
out
to
write
crime.
I
just
I
wanted
to
write
this
story.
It
really
did.
I
just
wrote
this
thing
about
a
cook
who
works
for
the
police,
and
she's
a
woman,
she's
of
an
immigrant
background,
and
she's
got
her
team,
and
all
is
well,
and
it
all
starts
to
go
a
bit
wrong
when
her
team
discovers
quite
a
large
sum
of
money
and
it
goes
into
crime.
And
then,
like,
my
agent
was
like,
You've
written
crime.
I
was
like,
Oh,
have
I?
She
said,
Yeah,
people
come
on
dying.
It's
like
this
this
has
to
be
crime.
So
then
it
became
what
is
technically
known
as
cozy
crime,
which
I
didn't
know
existed.
That's
a
big
genre.
Oh,
it's
the
same.
I
didn't
realize
I'd
written
cozy
crime
back,
and
so
very
excited
about
that.
Yeah,
Faith
Amponza
is
the
name
of
the
protagonist,
and
her
series
begins.
And
fingers
crossed
touch
word
2027
publication
of
the
first
in
the
Faith
and
Ponza
series.
Yeah.
There
you
go.
Katy
41:11
We
will
look
out
for
that.
Have
you
got
any
more
children's
books
coming?
We
know
you've
got
potentially
four
more
copy
ones
when
you
get
round
to
them.
But
are
there
any
is
there
anything
else
on
the
way?
Any
more
non-fiction
or
anything
that
we
should
look
at?
Jeffrey
41:24
Oh,
wait,
I
I
I
get
about
three
good
ideas
a
day.
I'll
tell
you
that.
Three
good
ideas,
right?
Yeah,
this
one's
gonna
take
over
the
world.
This
is
a
good
one.
So
there's
always
something
brewing,
and
as
long
as
I
feel
like
there's
something
important
to
say,
or
that
little
window
for
ideas,
and
my
head
is
open,
there's
always
gonna
be
something
flying
in
there.
But
I
like
to
keep
on
busy.
Ali
41:47
Brilliant.
So
finally,
is
there
a
children
or
YA
book
that
you've
come
across
recently
that
you
think
should
be
getting
more
attention
than
it
has
done
that
you'd
really
recommend
to
our listeners?
Jeffrey
41:59
Amazing.
Wild
East
by
Ashley
Hickson
Lovence
is
about
uh
a
boy
who's
he's
about
14.
So
it's
actually
a
tricky
age
to
write
about,
you
know,
like
that
kind
of
proper
adolescent
age,
and
he's
not
particularly
into
books,
but
then
he
finds
himself
going
to
a
writing
kind
of
workshop
scenario,
and
he's
also
moving
from
one
part
of
the
country
to
the
next.
There's
a
lot
of
upheaval
in
his
life,
but
the
whole
thing
is
written
in
this
beautiful
poetic
prose.
And
I
think
it's
I
think
it's
one
of
the
most
beautiful
books
about
writing
that
I've
read
in
a
long
time,
and
it
also
makes
you
want
to
write,
which
is
fantastic
because
there
are
moments
in
the
book
where
he
explores
his
own
writing
and
you
can
feel,
oh,
maybe
I
could
do
this
sort
of
energy.
And
yeah,
it's
just
it's
really,
really
subtle,
really,
really
beautiful,
lovely
for
that
kind
of
teenage
audience
who
maybe
think,
I
don't
know
what
to
read.
Yeah,
Wild
East
by
Ashley
Hickson
Lovence
is
really,
really,
really
beautiful
work.
Katy
43:13
A
great
recommendation.
Thank
you
very
much
for
your
time.
It's
been
brilliant
to
listen
to
you,
and
uh,
we
look
forward
to
seeing
what
comes
out
next.
We
really
hope
you
enjoyed
that.
I
think
you
can
sense
that
we
did.
Ali
43:26
I'm
not
sure
we
can
add
much,
but
do
seek
out
is
excellent
books.
Katy
43:30
And
a
small
plug
for
book
clubs
and
schools
in
that
we
have
a
book
club
guide
for
his
first
Kofi
book,
Kofi
and
the
Rap
Battle
Summer,
and
also
for
Musical
World,
which
works
really
well
for
ad
hoc
book
talk
sessions.
So
you
can
do
any
chats
you
like,
and
as
we
discussed,
you
can
listen
to
the
music
too.
So
it's
just
a
really
good
way
of
discussing
a
text
and
getting
young
people
and
involved
and
engaged
in
that.
Yeah.
So
enjoy
those
books.