For the National Year of Reading, we are sharing a series of short conversations with people who are involved in promoting reading with young people. This could be a programme, resources or a literary event, and we’re giving them the opportunity to share what they do and how people can get involved.
In this episode we are joined by Andrew McCallum, Director of the
English and Media Centre. The EMC is a charity which supports English & Media teachers and students through publications and classroom resources, online and in-person CPD, student magazines and research. Established in 1990, they promote best practice in all aspects of English and Media teaching and work with teachers to further their subject knowledge and pleasure in the subject, in order that they can provide their students with the best possible experience in the classroom.
In our conversation we discuss the vital role of creative pedagogy in English education, the importance of collaboration between teachers and librarians, and the need for diverse reading materials. Andrew highlights the Centre’s wide range of publications and resources aimed at enriching the teaching of English, the very collaborative nature of their work and CPD, as well as their support for initiatives such as Reading Teachers, Reading Pupils that encourage teachers to engage with children’s literature. We also discuss the necessity for reform in English education to counter the decline in students choosing to carry on studying it and how to bring joy and engagement back into the curriculum – not evolution but a reading revolution.
Katy
0:11
Hi,
I'm
Katy
Ali
0:13
and
I'm
Ali
and
welcome
to
Masty
Book
Talk.
Katy
0:16
This
episode
is
one
of
a
series
we
are
doing
about
book-related
charities
and
what
they're
doing
in
the
national
year
of
reading.
Ali
0:22
In
this
episode,
we
talk
to
Andrew
McCallum,
who
is
the
director
of
the
English
and
Media
Centre.
Katy
0:33
So
we're
really
pleased
to
have
with
us
today
Andrew
McCallum,
who
is
the
director
of
the
English
and
Media
Centre.
So
welcome
Andrew.
And
do
you
want
to
just
tell
us
a
bit
about
what
the
English
and
Media
Centre
does?
Andrew
0:46
So
I
think
the
first
thing
to
stress
is
we're
a
charity.
We're
set
up
specifically
to
support
English
and
media
teachers
in
secondary
schools.
That's
mainly
in
England
because
we
deal
with
the
English
national
curriculum.
But
obviously,
lots
of
what
we
do
relates
to
other
countries
within
the
UK.
And
in
fact,
when
we
added
it
up,
we
reached
60
countries
last
year
because
we
have
webinars
that
people
can
access
from
all
over
the
world
and
so
on.
So
in
terms
of
that
support,
it
comes
in
the
form
of
CPD,
it
comes
in
the
form
of
publishing.
So
we
have
lots
of
our
own
books
that
I
can
talk
about.
We
have
two
magazines
for
A-level
students,
one
for
A-level
literature
and
language,
and
one
for
A-level
media
and
film
studies.
We
run
conferences
for
A-level
students,
we
run
a
media
PDC
course,
we
do
a
little
bit
of
consultancy
and
advocacy,
and
the
advocacy
is
definitely
the
crossover
with
the
national
year
of
reading.
Katy
1:44
And
so
tell
me
about
how,
in
terms
of
supporting
that
kind
of
wider
reading
and
that
sort
of
exploration
of
books,
and
how
do
you
do
that
in
terms
of
the
curriculum?
Because
my
impression
is
that
you're
not
really
there
doing
kind
of
revision
guides
and
saying
this
is
the
Mark
scheme.
That's
not
your
new
approach,
is
it?
Andrew
2:02
We
we
do
have
revision
guides
and
we
do
refer
to
MARC
schemes,
but
we
don't
like
the
MARC
schemes,
and
we
don't
like
most
revision
guides
that
are
out
there.
So
we
kind
of
we're
outliers
in
a
way,
but
not
by
design.
We're
outliers
because
the
English
teaching
landscape
has
shifted
dramatically
in
the
last
15
to
20
years.
Last
10
years,
very
dramatically,
with
the
kind
of
knowledge
curriculum
and
how
it's
been
imposed
in
a
particular
way
on
all
subjects.
And
for
us,
in
terms
of
reading,
that's
driven
out
real
books
from
lots
of
classrooms.
Katy
2:36
Yeah.
Andrew
2:36
And
it's
driven
out
pedagogies
that
do
two
important
things
in
English.
They
encourage
young
people
to
like
and
enjoy
books
and
reading,
and
they
encourage
young
people
to
think
about
books
and
their
reading.
So
if
you
had
to
encapsulate
our
approach,
it
would
it
would
be
a
creative
one.
But
what
that
means
is
lots
of
opportunities
for
talk.
So
if
you're
studying
a
book,
you
have
to
talk
about
the
book.
And
that
means
students
talking
with
each
other,
and
it
means
them
talking
in
generative
ways.
So
they're
coming
up
with
ideas
with
some
guidance
from
the
teacher,
but
not
too
much
intervention
because
otherwise
they
simply
take
on
board
the
teacher's
words
and
they
don't
engage
dialogically
with
the
text
itself.
And
that's
what
texts
are
designed
for.
They
are
not
designed
as
didactic
tones
which
you
read
and
simply
absorb
and
take
as
said,
as
read.
Yeah.
Nor
do
you
take
as
read
what
the
teacher
tells
you
you
have
to
have
that
engagement
and
that
comeback.
Katy
3:35
So,
in
terms
of
starting
with
the
CPD,
what
kind
of
CPD
do
you
offer
and
would
be
available
for
is
it
teachers
and
librarians?
Andrew
3:44
It's
mainly
teachers,
but
we
ran
a
course
just
a
couple
of
weeks
ago,
which
was
fully
attended,
where
which
was
for
Reading
for
Pleasure
specifically.
And
with
one
or
two
courses,
we
make
them
two
for
one,
not
because
they're
failing
to
sell,
but
because
you
get
a
better
course
if
two
people
come
along.
And
with
that
one,
we
encouraged
a
teacher
and
a
librarian
to
come
along.
Katy
4:05
Oh
wow.
Andrew
4:06
And
that's
it's
great
for
the
English
teachers
there
because
librarians
just
know
a
ton
of
stuff
about
books,
as
you'd
hope,
particularly
young
people's
books,
that
hand
on
heart,
lots
of
English
teachers
don't
know.
And
that
was
me
actually
for
the
first
seven,
eight,
nine
years
of
my
teaching
life.
I'm
a
voracious
reader,
but
I've
stubbornly
stuck
to
my
own
reading
diet
of
adult
stuff.
And
it
was
only
when
I
very
self-consciously
decided
I
was
going
to
commit
to
uh
YA
and
children's
fiction
that
I
A
had
that
bank
of
knowledge
that
I
could
use
with
my
students,
but
B
saw
the
real
potential
and
the
joys
of
that
particular
form
as
well.
Katy
4:45
That's
really
interesting.
And
it's
interesting
bringing
librarians
and
teachers
together
because
we
definitely
meet
librarians
who
really
just
want
to
reach
out
to
the
teachers,
and
there
is
a
sort
of
an
invisible
wall
almost
between
the
library
and
the
teachers.
And
then
we
see
in
some
schools
where
that
relationship
works
really
well,
and
then
there's
just
this
constant
exchange,
not
just
with
the
English
teachers,
but
between
the
librarians
and
all
of
the
other
teachers
going,
Oh,
you're
studying
this
in
science.
Have
you
seen
these
books?
And
that
that
when
that
happens,
you
can
see
those
books
going
into
all
subject
areas
and
that
reading
going
on
in
a
very
different
way.
Andrew
5:21
100%.
And
the
other
great
thing
is
that
lots
of
non-English
teachers
are
readers
and
readers
of
books
that
would
relate
to
the
English
classroom.
And
they
might
have
a
science
twist
or
they
may
well
be
a
non-fiction
book,
but
actually
that's
one
of
the
joys
of
the
staff
room
and
getting
kind
of
staff
reading
groups
going,
tons
of
readers
out
there,
because
that's
what
lots
of
people
like
to
do,
isn't
it?
And
actually,
if
you
can
get
a
setup
in
school,
nice
displays
in
school
where
Mr.
Oms
So-and-so
that
from
science
or
geography
are
reading
this
book,
and
it's
not
to
do
with
their
subject,
but
it's
just
that
sense
that
you
can
be
a
reader
and
have
other
interests
as
well.
Katy
5:57
Yeah.
So,
in
terms
of
your
CPD,
you're
based
in
London.
Are
all
of
your
CPDs
held
in
London,
or
can
you
do
them
online
or
are
they
moved
around
the
country?
Andrew
6:06
Um,
so
we
like
a
lot
of
organisations,
lockdown
was
an
absolute
game
changer
for
us.
We
decided
in
May
to
try
online
stuff,
priced
very
cheaply.
And
I
I
skeptically
thought
Meryl
would
come.
And
they
got
hundreds
of
people,
and
it
means
that
we've
carried
on
with
that.
We
don't
get
hundreds
of
people,
we
get
good
numbers
now.
But
yeah,
we
run
about
25
courses
of
one
kind
or
another
each
term.
Yeah,
seven
or
eight
of
them
will
be
in
this
room,
which
fits
20
people
in
it,
and
it's
in
a
wonderful
building
we
share
with
the
Centre
for
Literacy
in
primary
education,
who
are
now
part
of
the
National
Literacy
Trust,
which
obviously
is
the
National
Year
of
Reading.
So
our
landlords
are
the
National
Year
of
Reading
organizers,
the
National
Literacy
Trust.
And
then
we
did
we'll
do
some
full-day
ones
online
where
we
limit
the
numbers
and
there's
lots
of
use
of
breakout
rooms,
and
we'll
do
12
webinars
a
term,
which
you
can
come
as
a
on
a
one-off
basis,
or
actually
schools
can
buy
a
package,
very
reasonably
priced,
and
and
come
on
all
of
them,
and
all
their
teachers
can
come
on
all
of
them
or
watch
them
on
demand.
They
don't
have
to
come
live.
Katy
7:13
And
you
also
mentioned
that
you
do
two
magazines,
yeah,
and
they're
for
people
studying
English,
A-level,
and
media
studies.
Andrew
7:22
E
magazine.
The
name
was
devised
before
the
internet
era,
so
everyone
thinks
of
now.
But
e
is
for
English.
Katy
7:30
Oh
wow.
Andrew
7:31
In
e
magazine.
It's
written
by
academics,
teachers,
and
students,
and
its
main
focus
is
uh
the
A-level
specs.
So
text
like
uh
Streetcar
Name
Desire,
Handmaid's
Tale,
Hamlet,
Lear,
etc.
There'd
be
lots
of
articles,
not
necessarily
any
given
issue,
but
there's
a
huge
archive
that
schools
get
access
to
when
they
subscribe.
And
there's
Harry
Styles,
a
bit
different,
isn't
it?
As
a
student,
which
would
you
choose?
Katy
7:58
Well,
so
you're
so
I
should
say,
because
for
listeners,
Andrew's
holding
up
the
cover
of
is
it
the
what's
the
the
media
magazine?
Media
magazine.
Media
magazine,
which
is
for
media
students.
Andrew
8:08
Media and
film
students.
Katy
8:09
Media and
film
students,
yeah.
It
has
a
slightly
racier
cover.
Andrew
8:12
It
has
some
really
racy
covers
from
time
to
time.
We
have
to
be
quite
careful
what
we
think
can
go
in
school
libraries.
Yeah,
same
concept
written
by
academics
teachers
and
students.
Katy
8:22
It's
between
it's
not
quite
academic
journal,
that
sort
of
complexity
of
writing,
but
it
is
there's
proper
articles,
aren't
they,
that
of
analysis
and
offer
different
perspectives
for
students
to
read.
Andrew
8:34
Yeah.
So
they
the
best
articles
will
take
a
slightly
unusual
line
about
a
particular
topic.
Um
trying
to
think.
So,
for
example,
I
occasionally
write
an
article
myself,
so
I
wrote
one
about
1984,
which
looked
at
cognitive
literary
studies
and
how
that
relates
to
1984,
which
when
you
when
you
if
you
reread
it,
which
I
would
encourage
all
listeners
to
do,
because
it's
a
fascinating
book
to
read
for
a
second
time.
Katy
8:57
Yeah.
Andrew
8:58
As
are
lots
of
books,
if
you
like
them,
because
you
know
what
happens.
So
you
focus
on
the
kind
of
craft
and
the
and
the
reveals
in
1984
as
a
first-hand
reader
are
massive,
aren't
they?
Yeah.
Will
will
don't
spoil
it
for
anyone
who
hasn't
read
it,
but
will
Winston
get
called?
Will
he
be
reprogrammed?
What
happens
to
him?
Reading
knowing
that,
it's
still
an
interesting
book.
And
through
the
lens
of
cognitive
literary
studies,
it's
fascinating
because
you
feel
how
Orwell
is
consciously
crafting
that
book
so
it
works
on
your
mind
in
particular
ways.
So
it's
a
classic
of
show,
not
tell.
You
never
ever
are
told
what
Winston
is
thinking,
Winston
Smith
is
thinking.
And
yeah,
it's
all
about
his
mind
because
it's
about
thought
control,
but
you're
never
told
what
he's
thinking.
You've
got
to
work
out
as
a
reader.
Katy
9:43
Yeah,
that's
definitely
that.
So
that
is
a
tip
to
go
back
and
read
it
with
that
lens.
Andrew
9:47
And
then
and
then
read
subscribe
to
eMagazine
and
read
the
article.
Katy
9:50
So
the
schools
can
subscribe
to
eMagazine,
it
goes
in
their
library,
they
then
can
access
it.
Can
students
so
they
get
physical
copies,
but
they
can
access
it
online?
Andrew
9:58
You
can
get
web
only,
but
you
can
get
the
physical
copy
as
well.
And
then
you
get
uh
you
set
your
own
username
and
password
that
all
your
students
have
access
to.
And
you
can
set
multiple
usernames
and
passwords
as
well.
If
one
person
in
your
school
buys
it
and
you,
as
a
teacher,
go
in
and
create
an
account,
there's
an
area
in
the
website
which
will
show
them
the
school
subscribed,
and
you
can
create
your
own
username
and
password,
give
it
to
your
students
in
your
class.
So
if
it's
multiple
uses,
yeah.
And
there's
over
a
hundred
back
copies
going
to
over
20
years.
Yeah.
Katy
10:27
Excellent.
Okay.
And
you
also
have
a
range
of
publications.
Andrew
10:31
Yeah.
Yeah.
Katy
10:32
So
give
us
a
little
tour
of
what
I
will.
Andrew
10:34
I've
got
them
here
to
hold
up.
Uh
but
obviously
you
can't
see
if
you
just
listen
to
this.
We're
really
proud
of
our
publications,
and
they've
changed
as
the
education
landscapes
changed.
So
they're
much
we
used
to
publish
much
more
resources
for
teaching
that
were
big
resource
packs
that
would
be
photocopied.
Katy
10:50
Yep.
Andrew
10:51
And
to
a
really
high
quality.
Lots
of
that
is
kind
of
thing
is
available
online
now.
And
the
nature
of
the
online
world
is
people
would
rather
get
something
for
free
that
perhaps
isn't
quite
as
good
as
pay
for
something
that's,
in
my
humble
opinion,
absolutely
fantastic.
So
we've
branched
out
to
publishing
more
anthology-based
material
that
we're
really
proud
of
because
we
think
we've
gifted
tens,
hundreds
of
thousands
of
students
some
amazing
short
stories.
Katy
11:18
Yeah.
Andrew
11:19
And
short
stories,
I
think,
are
a
brilliant
way
to
capture
reluctant
readers.
Katy
11:26
Yeah.
Andrew
11:27
And
to
also
give
all
readers
an
insight
into
the
more
adult
world
of
reading
as
a
young
person.
So
most
of
the
stories
we
publish
in
our
anthologies,
not
all
of
them,
are
actually
by
grown-up
writers,
right
for
grown-ups.
Katy
11:42
Right.
Andrew
11:43
And
yet
we
what
we
do
is
we
do
a
lot
of
reading
of
short
stories,
and
we
find
ones
we
know
and
test
out
in
the
classroom,
and
it'd
be
brilliant.
So
we
started
off
with
literary
shorts,
I
will
hold
it
up,
which
is
short
stories
from
all
six
continents.
So
we
have
a
real
focus
on
diversity,
we
have
a
real
focus
on
stories
that
center
characters
who
historically
have
been
marginalized
in
fiction.
And
we've
always
done
that.
We've
been
around
for
50
years,
and
our
publishing
has
always
had
that
focus.
And
what
was
so
heartening
when
Black
Lives
Matter
took
off
in
the
UK
was
the
teachers
finally
felt
permission
to
buy
some
of
these
books.
Right.
It
was
interesting
for
us
as
publishers
to
see
that
suddenly
people
were
buying
books
they
hadn't
been
buying,
but
we
think
they'd
always
wanted
to.
But
that
that
Govian
agenda
just
crushed
reading
diversity
in
in
the
in
many
classrooms,
not
all.
There's
obviously
great
teachers
who
continue
to
do
all
sorts
of
things
with
or
without
permission.
And
the
curriculum
does
allow
for
it.
It's
not
that
the
official
curriculum
said
you
can't
study
these
texts.
But
people
felt
they
had
to
go
19th
century,
they
had
to
go
traditional,
they
had
to
go
canon,
and
and
suddenly
they
also
had
to
go
hard,
too
hard.
This
misunderstanding
of
how
you
develop
your
reading.
You
are
not
going
to
develop
as
a
reader
if
your
diet
is
solely
Shakespeare
and
Dickens
because
it's
too
difficult.
You
can't
access
it.
Katy
13:09
And
extracts,
which
is
what
my
kids
had
through
the
whole
of
Key
Stage
3.
Andrew
13:13
Yeah.
I
mean,
like
read
a
whole
book?
No.
Katy
13:16
Why
would
we
do
that?
Andrew
13:18
And
it's
yeah,
if
you
can't
read
a
whole
book,
read
a
short
story.
So,
for
example,
and
they
are
I
call
them
canonical
writers.
There's
a
short
story
by
Alice
Walker
in
here,
The
Flowers.
Yeah.
You
can
read
it
in
five
minutes.
There's
a
short
story
by
Gene
Reese
in
here,
I
Used
to
Live
Here
Once.
You
can
read
it
in
five
minutes.
There
are
also
much
longer
stories.
Some
are
by
from
the
19th
century.
They're
by
people
like
Thomas
Hardy.
So
they're
not
all
the
idea
with
that
one
was
to
get
that
kind
of
mix.
Yeah.
But
the
bestseller,
the
two
bestsellers,
are
being
much
more
contemporary,
and
students
love
the
stories.
So
we've
got
one
called
Iridescent
Adolescence.
Katy
13:54
Yeah,
I
know
that
one.
I've
recommended
that
to
quite
a
few
schools.
Andrew
13:58
And
the
writings
in
here,
some
of
them
are
big
names,
like
George
Saunders,
Anita
Desai,
Margaret
Atwood,
all
Chimamander
Adicci.
Katy
14:07
Yep.
Andrew
14:07
Traditionally
aimed
at
an
adult
audience.
But
these
work
in
classrooms,
year
eight,
nine,
probably
not
year
seven,
eight,
nine
and
above.
But
also
some
names
that
people
aren't
familiar
with,
but
are
brilliant:
Jamil
Jan
Kotsai,
Phoebe
Roy,
Aisha
Siddiqui,
who's
become
a
bit
of
a
bigger
name
since
we
published.
And
it
even
has
a
graphic
short
story
in
the
middle,
which
teachers
and
students
absolutely
love.
And
it
really
works.
If
you
want
to
show
that
it
doesn't
have
to
all
be
canonical
and
traditional,
then
that
single
graphic
is
the
way
to
go.
Katy
14:41
Yeah.
Andrew
14:41
Shall
I
show
you
our
other
best
selling?
Katy
14:43
Yeah,
go
on.
Show
us
that
one.
Andrew
14:44
That's
diverse
shorts,
which
has
been
around
for
nearly
10
years.
It's
got
some
of
the
pipets
in
there
are
extracts
from
novels
rather
than
short
stories.
And
there's
a
few
more
um
people
who
write
specifically
for
a
children's
NYA
audience
like
Sita
Brahmachari,
David
Ormond,
Janita
Finara,
etc.
Katy
15:01
Is
Sita's
story
in
there
the
one
that
she's
taken
to
develop
to
be
her
latest
book?
Phoenix
Brothers?
Andrew
15:09
No,
it's
not.
But
it
is
in
here.
Katy
15:12
Oh,
okay.
I
knew
it
was
somewhere.
I
knew,
yeah.
So
she
wrote
it
because
I
know
it
had
the
it's
sort
of
the
germ
of
the
idea
was
in
a
short
story,
and
then
she's
taken
that
and
written
the
book.
Andrew
15:22
So
we're
getting
back
to
Orwell
actually.
Actually,
I
mentioned
him
earlier,
he's
everywhere.
Amir
and
George
is
a
short
story.
And
the
reason
we
know
these
we
don't
we
sell,
so
we
know
they're
doing
they've
done
well.
Yeah.
But
when
Cita
goes
around
schools,
that
is
the
piece
of
her
writing
that
secondary
students
reference.
Katy
15:38
Interesting.
Andrew
15:39
Um,
and
it
is
ever
so
popular.
And
the
original
short
story,
Amir
is
an
Iraqi
refugee,
and
he
finds
himself
a
year
on
from
coming
to
England
in
a
public
speaking
competition.
It's
the
George
Orwell
Prize.
Katy
15:53
Yeah.
Andrew
15:54
He
wins
his
school
competition,
and
so
he
goes
to
the
final,
which
is
at
an
unnamed
school
in
the
short
story.
From
memory,
it's
named
in
the
novel,
it's
Eton.
Yeah,
because
George
Orwell
went
to
Eden.
Katy
16:07
Yeah.
Andrew
16:08
And
a
teacher
takes
Amir
there,
and
it
transpires
the
teacher
also
went
to
Eden.
And
Dilly
didn't
have
a
great
time
there
because
he's
slightly
traumatised
by
going
back.
Sounds
a
bit
like
my
own
experience
to
my
school.
And
yeah,
I
won't
give
everything
away,
but
don't
everything
away.
No,
because
that
that
the
ending
of
that
you
don't
want
to
give
away.
No,
but
this
the
speech
itself
narrates
Amir's
journey.
Katy
16:30
Yeah.
Andrew
16:31
Which
is
the
journey
that
so
many
people
go
through,
involving
boats,
hikes,
horrible
detention
centers,
channel
crossings,
seeking
refuge,
and
so
on.
So
very
current
and
important
story.
Katy
16:46
It
is
an
important
story.
And
they
are
and
they
are
children.
That's
the
thing
that
comes
through
the
whole
thing.
Yeah.
So
are
you
doing
anything
particular?
I
know
you're
being
hosted
technically
by
the
National
Year
of
Reading.
Are
you
doing
anything
special
for
the
or
particular
for
the
National
Year
of
Reading?
You
don't
need
to
be,
but
is
there
something
that
you've
been
focusing
on
this
year?
Andrew
17:09
I
wouldn't
say
we've
actively
changed,
but
we
have
flagged
up
the
National
Year
of
Reading
linked
to
various
things
we
do,
including
the
Reading
for
Pleasure
course
that
I
mentioned
earlier.
But
what
our
focus
is,
I
think
it
was
term
one
of
the
National
Year
of
Reading,
so
the
January
term,
just
gone.
The
focus
was
on
reading
in
the
classroom.
And
while
we
promote
wider
reading,
volitional
reading,
reading
for
pleasure,
whatever
you
want
to
call
it,
our
part
of
our
mission
is
to
make
reading
in
the
classroom
as
good
as
it
can
be.
And
that
links
back
to
what
I
was
talking
about
earlier
about
creative
approaches
to
reading,
a
pedagogy
that
allows
young
people
to
have
ideas
about
the
text.
And
it
means
getting
the
text
right,
getting
the
balance
between
the
canonical
and
the
contemporary,
giving
students
an
element
of
choice,
which
you
can
do
with
short
stories.
We've
got
some
great
activities
where
you
end
up
with
different
short
stories
circulating
in
the
classroom
at
the
same
time.
Because
I
think
what
the
not
I
think
the
knowledge
agenda
in
education
left
English
teachers
not
quite
knowing
what
to
do.
And
what
it's
resulted
in
is
at
GCSE
they
learn
every
single
word
of
a
book
like
Christmas
Carol,
every
single
word.
They've
annotated
every
single
word
in
that
book
because
the
knowledge
equals
knowing
about
that
book.
But
to
us,
and
I
think
to
most
English
teachers,
and
certainly
their
degrees,
that's
not
what
knowledge
in
or
about
English
is.
Knowledge
in
English
is
about
how
you
read
a
book
and
what
you
do
with
it.
And
so
our
focus
is
on
you
have
to
get
you
have
to
get
the
book
choice
right,
but
much
more
importantly,
you
have
to
get
the
pedagogy
right.
And
that
means
you
cannot
have
a
model
where
you're
just
telling
young
people
what
to
think
about
the
book,
which
can
happen
if
the
book's
too
hard.
So
this
is
where
the
balance
comes
in.
It's
very
difficult,
but
it's
by
no
means
impossible.
And
I
got
a
sense
of
how
important
it
is
to
have
other
people
giving
you
ideas
about
the
book
and
sharing
ideas
when
I
ran
a
course
the
other
day
looking
at
climate
education
in
English.
I
was
looking
at,
we've
got
another
anthology
of
nature
writer
called
Law
and
Wonder.
And
we
looked
at
that,
that's
some
text
in
there,
and
then
we
looked
at
a
short
story
that's
we
haven't
anthologised,
but
I
hope
to
in
the
future.
It's
by
a
Japanese
writer
called
Hiromi
Kawakami,
and
it's
called
Happy
New
Year.
And
it's
set
in
a
distant
future
where
something
it's
cli-fi
climate
fiction.
Katy
19:28
Yeah.
Andrew
19:28
Something's
catastrophically
has
gone
wrong,
and
the
population
is
very
sparse,
and
people
are
living
quite
isolated
existences.
And
because
of
that,
the
short
story
is
written
as
if
language
itself
is
atrophied,
just
like
society's
atrophied.
Katy
19:42
Okay.
Andrew
19:43
Some
teachers
hate
it
because
they
say,
but
it's
language
is
too
simple,
and
others
absolutely
love
it.
I
get
people
to
give
it
marks
out
of
10,
and
you
always
get
a
one,
you
always
get
a
10.
Katy
19:51
Yeah.
Andrew
19:51
But
in
this
particular
activity,
using
the
chat
on
Zoom,
I
said,
look,
if
we're
teaching
this
in
the
classroom
and
you're
thinking
about
this
as
an
example
of
cli-fi,
climate
fiction,
what
are
the
likely
tropes
to
emerge
from
this
that
might
be
replicated
in
other
short
stories,
other
forms
of
cli-fi?
And
I
left
them
to
do
it
in
chat.
And
what
was
fascinating,
I'd
done
a
my
next
slide
was
here
are
the
things
to
notice.
And
I
had
about
12
things.
And
I
thought
I'd
been
really
comprehensive.
A
small
group
of
teachers
must
have
come
up
with
another
20
things
that's
really
interesting.
That
I'd
never
noticed.
And
without
them,
I
would
never
have
noticed.
But
you
have
to
do
that
in
the
classroom.
You
have
to
get
young
people,
and
it
just
makes
them
so
much
more
interested
in
their
reading.
Katy
20:33
Yeah.
And
also
the
leap
to
A
level,
and
then
from
A
level
on,
if
they're
going
to
carry
on
studying,
they
they
can't
just
be
going,
okay,
I
know
what
this
says.
I've
been
told
what
this
says,
and
I've
learnt
what
it
says.
Andrew
20:45
Yeah,
yeah.
They're
lost.
And
sadly,
we
are
getting.
Yes,
we're
hearing
of
students
who
are
stuck
when
they
get
to
A-level
because
they've
been
overly
coached
for
GCSE.
It's
gotten
the
grades,
but
it's
not
giving
them
the
education
they
need.
And
then
they're
stuck
at
A-level,
and
then
they
can
be
coached
through
A
level
sometimes
as
well.
It's
a
bit
harder
to
do
that
direct
coaching.
Then
they
get
stuck
at
university.
Katy
21:08
Yeah.
Andrew
21:08
So
we're
not
doing
students
any
favours
by
silencing
them
in
classrooms
and
not
letting
them
talk
about
books.
Katy
21:14
Yeah.
And
am
I
right
in
thinking
that
you
also
run
a
reading
teachers,
reading
pupils
group?
Or
have
I
missed
it?
Andrew
21:22
We
do.
I
don't
personally.
My
colleague
Kate
Oliver
has
been
running
that,
I
think,
for
at
least
five
years
now,
probably
six,
and
it
is
very
successful.
Katy
21:31
Give
a
quick
explain
what
that
explain
what
it
is.
I've
thrown
it
in,
but
I
haven't
explained
what
it
is.
Andrew
21:36
RTRP,
Reading
Teachers,
Reading
Pupils.
Brilliant
project
that
was
set
up
linked
to
the
Charleston
Literature
Festival,
where
the
notion
was
that
if
it's
a
bit
like
I
was
saying
I
didn't
read
children's
literature
for
the
first
10
years
in
my
career,
and
then
it
was
a
revelation
when
I
did.
Katy
21:51
Yeah.
Andrew
21:52
If
you're
going
to
teach
young
people
to
read
about
reading,
you
need
to
be
readers
yourselves
and
read
the
material
that
they
Will
want
to
read.
So
reading
teachers,
therefore,
aids
and
facilitates
reading
pupils.
And
uh
we've
got
a
group
of
15,
I
think.
You
come
to
the
session,
there's
one
every
half,
you
discuss
the
book
you've
been
reading,
and
then
the
next
book
is
in
a
is
wrapped
up
and
you
all
open
it
and
it's
a
surprise.
And
the
books
are
carefully
chosen
by
the
Cheltenham
Literature
organizers
with
the
lots
of
teachers
who
are
involved.
Really
great
kind
of
model
because
you
get
new
stuff,
you
get
a
classic,
and
you
get
a
graphic.
Katy
22:29
Okay.
Andrew
22:30
So
you
really
get
another
kind
of
full
package.
Katy
22:32
Sounds
really
interesting.
So
how
do
people
get
involved?
So
where
do
they
find
you?
Are
there
things
that
you're
looking
to
get
people
involved
in?
Andrew
22:42
Like
most
things,
it's
the
website.englishandmedia.co.uk.
But
if
you
just
want
a
taste
of
what
we
do,
there's
lots
of
free
stuff
on
there.
There's
a
tab
at
the
top
called
EMC
Free.
You've
got
to
register,
and
once
you
register,
we
will
send
you
emails
about
what
to,
which
obviously
you
can
unsubscribe
from.
But
that's
a
very
good
way
of
being
kept
up
to
date.
Lots
of
it
is
here's
a
course,
so
it's
obviously
stuff
you'd
your
school
would
have
to
pay
for,
here's
some
books.
But
there
is
other
there
is
lots
of
other
stuff.
For
example,
we
run
what
we
call
an
associate
teacher
program
where
we
we're
all
teachers
here,
but
we're
not
in
classrooms.
Katy
23:22
Yeah.
Andrew
23:22
So
to
get
us
into
classrooms
and
to
keep
us
in
touch,
we
every
year
recruit
four,
five,
six
classroom
teachers
who
during
the
course
of
that
year
revisit
them
in
their
school
to
see
their
excellent
teaching
and
practice.
We
might
ask
if
we've
got
any
resources
we
can
pinch,
any
examples
of
writing
for
courses
we're
running.
And
the
great
thing
is
that
it
showed
us
what
brilliant
teachers
are
out
there.
So
lots
of
them
in
the
last
two,
and
we've
only
been
doing
it
two
years,
we're
just
recruiting
now
for
the
third
year.
Katy
23:54
Yeah.
Andrew
23:55
And
we've
had
at
least
nine
teachers
run
CPD
alongside
us,
present
at
teacher
conferences
that
we
run,
write
blogs.
Katy
24:05
And
that
must
be
excellent
for
them
as
well
in
terms
of
thinking
about
their
own
practice.
Andrew
24:09
I
hope
so
and
think
so,
yeah,
because
I
think
the
I
think
there
were
more
opportunities
to
do
what
we
do
here
in
other
organizations
in
the
past.
I'm
specifically
talking
about
local
authorities.
Katy
24:21
Yeah.
Andrew
24:22
In
an
age
when
everything
wasn't
quite
set
prescribed.
Now
there
are
still
those
opportunities
in
maths,
and
there
are
some
of
the
some
maps
that
are
quite
creative
and
let
their
directors
of
English
do
all
kinds
of
imaginative
things.
But
there
are
lots
of
maps
that
are
quite
prescriptive
about
how
everyone
has
to
operate.
Katy
24:38
We
all
know
why.
Yeah,
no,
we
we
know
schools
where
literally
every
school
in
a
MAT
is
on
the
same
slide
on
the
same
day,
not
necessarily
the
same
day,
but
the
same
week.
This
week
it
is
we're
all
doing
this.
Yeah,
and
it's
not
it's
not
really
hard
to
do
anything
flexible.
Yeah.
Andrew
24:54
It
means,
yeah,
what
we've
had
three
or
four
examples
of
recently
is
teachers
getting
in
touch
to
say,
I've
been
really
happily
and
successfully
teaching
English
for
15
years,
and
we've
just
been
taken
over
by
a
MAT
who
say
we've
got
to
all
do
this,
and
it's
really
terrible.
And
it
and
you'll
get
people,
people
obviously
leave
because
of
the
work
pressures,
yeah,
but
it
people
will
also
leave
for
you
might
call
existential
reasons.
This
is
not
what
I
signed
up
to
do.
This
is
not
English,
this
is
not
going
to
instill
a
love
of
reading
in
young
people,
it's
not
going
to
make
them
readers.
It
might
scrape
them
a
GCSE
but
to
what
end?
Yeah.
Katy
25:32
Yeah.
Can
we
end
on
a
and
on
a
happier
and
more
optimistic
note?
Yeah,
yeah,
yeah.
So,
what
is
what
are
your
hopes
for
the
National
Year
of
Reading?
Andrew
25:40
They
are
linked
to
that.
Yeah.
Katy
25:42
More
pessimistic.
Yeah.
Andrew
25:43
It's
that
policymakers,
MAT
leaders,
head
teachers
without
an
English
specialism
come
to
recognize
the
role
that
English
lessons
can
play
in
promoting
reading.
Katy
25:52
Yeah.
Andrew
25:52
And
lots
of
young
people
still
really
love
English
lessons
and
have
amazing
English
teachers.
I
meet
amazing
English
teachers
every
week.
But
it
it
I
started
teaching
30
years
ago.
And
it
was,
it's
not
a
kind
of
myth,
it's
not
made
up
to
thing
to
say
that
it
was
for
lots
of
students,
it
was
their
favourite
subject.
For
lots
and
lots
of
students.
Now
the
subject
had
a
totally
different
status
then.
When
I
went
to
university,
it
sounds
like
speculative
fiction
or
something,
but
it
was
like
the
degree
to
do,
it
was
the
hardest
to
get
on.
I'm
just
hoping
it
survives
and
becomes
something
vibrant,
which
you
know
this
were
great
university.
There
are
great
university
posts
out
there,
but
young
people
aren't
applying
for
them.
Katy
26:38
I
have
one
applying.
Andrew
26:40
Very
good.
I
had
two
not
applying,
most
definitely.
It's
become
a
much
more
gendered
subject
as
well.
It's
mainly
girls
who
are
applying
and
who
are
staying
on
a
A-level.
My
partner
teaches
in
a
mixed
school,
she
regularly
has
whole
classes
that
are
just
girls.
Katy
26:53
Yeah.
Andrew
26:53
So
my
hope
is
policymakers
wake
up
and
realize
the
way
pedagogy
has
been
imposed,
imposed
this
wrong
word
as
well,
because
it's
just
organically
happened.
It's
a
kind
of
Foucaultan
model
of
governance,
isn't
it?
Everyone
feels
they
have
to
do
this,
but
they're
not
quite
sure
why,
because
there's
no
one
actively
saying.
And
if
you
challenge
it,
say
you
don't
have
to
do
that.
Yeah.
But
you
kind
of
do.
So
it's
that
somehow
the
messages
get
through
that
reading
has
to
be
more
vibrant
in
English
classrooms,
and
that's
linked
to
pedagogy
being
different.
It's
linked
to
an
understanding
of
what
knowledge
in
English
is.
It
will
need
radical
GCSE
reform.
Now
we're
about
to
get
GCSE
reform.
Katy
27:33
It's
been
called
evolutionary,
is
it
the
word?
Andrew
27:36
Evolution,
not
revolution.
But
it
has
to
be
revolutionary.
It's
not
going
to
be.
But
people
need
to
realize
it
at
some
level,
perhaps
how
it's
assessed,
it
has
to
be
revolutionary
because
it's
not
working.
It
really
isn't
working
right
now.
And
if
you
want
to.
This
is
the
subject
where
you
read
books.
So
in
an
ash
year
of
reading,
it's
a
subject
that
needs
looking
at.
And
if
and
we
all
recognise
it's
not
quite
working.
And
we
also
know,
most
English
teachers
know
there
are
some
really
easy
answers.
So
it's
getting
a
system
where
people
feel
empowered
and
encouraged
and
not
scared
to
enact
those
answers
because
they're
quite
easy,
quite
quick
fixes.
Katy
28:15
Yeah.
Yeah.
No,
so
we
need
a
reading
revolution.
Andrew
28:19
Reading
revolution.
And
also
to
be
realistic,
it
won't
make
every
young
person
a
reader.
There
are
lots
of
forces
outside
the
classroom.
But
what
I
always
say
when
people
say,
Oh,
kids
aren't
reading
nowadays,
is
when
I
started
30
years
ago,
so
many
parents
would
sit
down
and
say,
they're
just
not
reading
anymore.
So
it's
not
really
been
any
different
30
years
ago.
There
are
new
pressures
to
do
with
the
online
world.
There
are
differences.
Lots
of
surveys
suggest
that
reading
has
gone
down.
I
think
it's
hard
to
argue
against
that.
I
think
they
can
tend
to
sensationalise
a
bit
as
well.
Katy
28:56
Yeah.
Andrew
28:56
But
there
are
loads
of
I
go
into
a
bookshop
and
there
are
actually
loads
of
young
people
doing
that.
Again,
mainly
girls.
But
there's
actually
for
people
who
do
read
that
it's
more
of
a
thing
than
it
used
to
be,
I
think.
And
it's
getting
that
it's
getting
sweeping
up
the
other
people,
getting
them
to
come
on
board.
Katy
29:13
Brilliant.
Okay.
Thank
you.
That
was
a
much
more
positive
positive
note
to
end
on.