For Part 6 we asked all our interviewees for one thing they would do to address the reading crisis. Properly funded libraries and librarians were unsurprisingly a strong theme, but also a rethink about how we position children’s reading – how do we find the space for children to read and support children to experience the power and enjoyment of reading so they find their own routes into reading, and choose to do it.
For this series we interviewed the following people (not all feature in every episode):
Dapo Adeola – Author and the illustrator of many books including Look Up!, Clean Up!and My Dad is a Grizzly Bear.
Sita Brahmachari – Author of many books including Artichoke Hearts, When Shadows Fall and Phoenix Brothers
Dr Darren Chetty – Lecturer at UCL Institute of Education and author, with Professor Karen Sands O’Connor, of Beyond the Secret Garden
Professor Teresa Cremin – Professor of Education and Co-Director of the Literacy and Social Justice Centre at The Open University
Charlotte Hacking – Teacher Engagement Lead at the Helen Hamlyn Centre for Pedagogy and Research and Curriculum Lead at Herne Hill School
Jenny Hawke – Children’s Librarian and Chair of the Youth Library Group
Tom Palmer – Author of many books including Angel of Grasmere, Resist and War Dog
Glynn Palmer–Bell – Assistant Director of English at Castle View Enterprise Academy, Sunderland
Louie Stowell – Author of many books including the Loki series, Otherland and the Dragon in the Library
Sabrina Sulliman – English teacher at Southfields Academy, South West London
At the end of the series we will invite comments and ideas from listeners so look out for how you can contribute to the discussion.
Many thanks to everyone we interviewed and to our Co Producer Belinda Naylor.
Ali
0:11
I'm
Ali.
Katy
0:12
And
I'm
Katie.
Welcome
to
Mostly
Book
Talk.
This
is
part
six
of
our
series
about
the
reading
crisis,
why
children
aren't
reading
and
what
we
can
do
about
it.
Ali
0:22
So
at
the
end
of
all
of
our
interviews,
our
last
question
to
people
was:
if
you
could
implement
one
national
policy
or
initiative
to
address
the
reading
crisis,
what
would
it
be
and
why?
Katy
0:32
The
majority
of
our
interviewees
focused
on
libraries,
both
school
and
public
libraries.
They
emphasized
how
well-resourced
libraries
support
access
to
books,
provide
a
social
space
for
reading,
and
how
a
well-stocked
library
is
essential
to
successfully
supporting
readers
within
schools.
They
also
stressed
that
libraries
need
knowledgeable
librarians
if
they
are
to
be
truly
effective.
Tom
Palmer
sums
it
up
succinctly.
Tom Palmer
0:57
A
school
librarian
in
every
school.
Katy
0:59
Illustrator
Dapo
Adeola
is
also
very
clear
about
this
issue.
He
says
it's
simple.
Dapo Adeola
1:05
Open
more
libraries.
It's
just
that
simple.
It's
not
complicated.
Build
more
public
libraries,
open
more
public
libraries,
fund
them,
train
the
staff
well,
facilitate
them
so
that
they
can
be
more
than
just
a
place
that
kids
can
go
to
get
books.
Because
libraries
are
so
much
more
than
just
homes
for
books
that
people
can
borrow.
You
know,
so
that's
it.
It's
just
that
simple.
Like
just
open
more
libraries
or
reopen
the
ones
you
close.
It's
not
hard.
We
always
talk
about
how
there's
no
money,
there's
no
money.
But
there's
always
money
to
go
to
war,
there's
always
money
to
do
things
that
we
didn't
ask
for.
Open
more
libraries,
reopen
the
libraries,
and
stop
closing
libraries.
You
know,
as
much
as
we're
talking
about
this
concern
for
reading,
if
you
really
were
concerned,
you'd
stop
closing
the
place
that
people
can
go
to
to
get
books
for
free.
You
really
would
stop
doing
that.
Ali
1:51
And
Jenny
Hawke,
Chair
of
the
Youth
Libraries
Group,
agrees.
Jenny Hawke
1:55
It
would
have
to
be,
I
think,
definitely
properly
funded
school
and
public
libraries
because
everything
sort
of
spirals
from
that,
really.
And
it
needs
to
be
every
area
of
the
country
as
well
to
have
that.
And
obviously,
we
all
welcome
the
news
about
a
school
library
in
every
primary,
but
it
needs
to
be
properly
managed
and
organized,
and
to
have
a
trained
member
of
staff.
So,
yeah,
I
think
I
would
just
have
to
go
with
that
because
I'm
sure,
well,
we
know
from
evidence
that
that
really
does
definitely
reignite
that
passion
for
reading
in
children.
Katy
2:46
Teacher
Glynn
Palmer
Bell
focuses
on
every
school
having
a
library
and
a
librarian.
Glynn
also
notes
the
value
of
a
school's
library
service,
which
he's
lucky
enough
to
still
have
in
Northumberland.
These
used
to
exist
across
the
country
and
support
schools
across
an
area
with
bookstock
and
advice,
but
they
now
only
operate
in
a
few
areas.
Glynn Palmer Bell
3:02
Every
school
to
have
a
library
and
a
dedicated
librarian.
I
know
that's
been
the
pledge
to
move
into
primary
schools,
and
I
understand
because
that's
where
the
drop
of
reading
of
pleasure
exists
at
the
upper
part
of
primary
schools,
but
it
does
continue
into
teenage
years.
And
the
one
thing
that
I
can
see
has
made
the
biggest
impact
is
a
fully
stock
library
with
a
dedicated
librarian.
My
worry
is
that
if
we
don't
have
a
dedicated
member
staff
with
the
expertise
and
the
time
and
the
brain
space
to
be
able
to
put
the
collection
together
and
it's
just
given
to
somebody
else
as
an
additional
responsibility,
then
it
won't
be
successful.
And
I'm
not
too
sure
about
the
national
picture,
but
the
school
library
services
have
depleted
and
have
gone
just
as
fast
as
community
libraries.
So
the
resurrection
of
libraries
and
the
resurrection
of
school
library
services,
we
lean
very
heavily
on
our
school
library
service.
And
it's
Northumberland's
and
it's
phenomenal.
They
do
an
amazing
job.
And
when
we
have
members
of
staff
asking
for
particular
books,
or
when
these
students
are
asking
for
a
collection
of
books,
we
have
the
ability
to
be
able
to
switch
out
books
that
we
know
are
popular
or
being
borrowed
that
we
were
hoping
to
because
the
students
are
in
charge
of
the
collection,
the
students
control
the
collection.
But
we
need
to
be
able
to
be
in
a
position
where
we
can
do
that.
My
worry
also
around
the
implementing
national
policy
is
non-fiction
and
how
non-fiction
is
being
consumed
and
how
non-fiction
books
can
go
out
of
date
so
easily
and
so
quickly.
When
we
think
about
what
reading
for
pleasure
means
for
students,
some
students
it's
about
non-fiction
as
well
as
fiction,
and
we
absolutely
prioritize
fiction.
There's
amazing
books
out
there,
but
the
non-fiction
books
are
also
going
to
win
over
certain
students.
And
if
we're
not
updating
them
regularly,
and
they
can
be
quite
expensive,
then
they
get
we
could
be
missing
a
strict
there.
So
I
think
those
school
library
services
can
really
bug
the
holes
and
make
sure
that
we're
getting
the
right
books
in
the
right
places.
Ali
4:56
We
hear
next
from
author
Louie
Stowell,
who
also
highlights
libraries,
and
that
we
might
want
to
look
to
Ireland
to
see
where
they're
succeeding.
Louie Stowell
5:03
Well,
I
think
the
base
level
policy
would
be
raise
taxes.
But
what
I
would
spend
that
tax
money
on
if
it
was
just
focused
on
reading
would
be
libraries.
And
it
would
be
ensuring
every
library
has
trained
librarians
and
that
it
has
new
stock.
And
also
that
it's
a
comfortable
space
to
be,
which
a
lot
of
libraries
are,
but
because
libraries
are
those
spaces
you
can
go
to
for
free,
it's
making
sure
it's
welcoming.
I
just
think
it's
one
of
those
key
factors
in
discovery
and
in
creating
spaces
to
read
and
social
spaces
to
read.
Because
obviously
you
get
all
those
like
story
times
and
stuff
at
libraries,
you
get
comics
clubs,
but
I
think
that's
just
down
to
having
the
money
to
do
that.
I
don't
think
there's
a
library
out
there
with
loads
of
money
that's
not
doing
that.
So
yeah,
I
think
funding
libraries
is
is
a
real
key
thing
because
a
lot
of
the
other
things
are
perhaps
things
that
businesses
could
do,
but
that
government
can't,
you
know.
But
I
think
government
should
just
fund
libraries.
I
guess
one
cheery
vision
is
Ireland.
And
I
I
feel
like
Ireland
would
not
agree
because
Ireland
would
be
like,
we've
got
reading
problems
too,
but
they
only
really
seem
to
develop
reading
problems
in
teenage
years,
and
actually,
children's
reading.
I
think
they
had
some
recent
stats
where
it's
like
90%
of
eight-year-olds
enjoy
reading
in
Ireland.
And
I
think
obviously
some
of
that
is
just
cultural
in
a
way
that
we
can't
replicate,
but
I
think
they
do
have
a
social
attitude
to
reading
and
a
social
attitude
to
stories.
So
whatever
we
can
copy,
please
do.
Katy
6:25
Professor
Teresa
Cremin
thought
that
choosing
one
measure
was
an
impossible
task
and
identifies
the
need
for
a
more
systemic
approach.
Teresa Cremin
6:32
It's
just
the
hardest
question
when
I
read
them
before.
I
thought
I
was
going
to
tell
you,
I
don't
have
one.
I
don't
think
there
is
one.
I
don't
think
there
is
one
that's
a
panacea.
But
I
suppose
I
would
really
value
all
head
teachers,
CEOs
of
trusts,
head
teachers
in
primary,
and
senior
leadership
teams
across
the
country
to
understand
the
power
and
potential
of
choosing
to
read
in
your
own
time
regularly,
the
books
and
the
subject
matters
that
you're
interested
in.
If
they
can
understand
the
power
of
volitional
reading,
they
might
pay
more
serious
attention
to
the
agenda
and
give
reading
for
pleasure
the
respect
it
deserves.
It
isn't
a
panacea,
but
it
can
make
a
very
significant
contribution
both
to
the
academic
growth,
but
also
the
social
and
emotional
well-being
of
our
young
people.
And
given
we
have
the
unhappiest
children,
according
to
the
childhood
survey,
in
Europe,
the
unhappiest
teenagers
across
Europe,
which
is
not
a
badge
that
sits
lightly
on
mine
or
anyone
else's
shoulders,
then
we
need
to
be
doing
something
serious
about
it
and
recognizing
that
reading
for
position
isn't
just
on
the
edge,
an
extra,
a
nice
to
have,
but
should
be
the
backbone
of
the
way
we
are
working
in
the
school
in
order
to
foster
that
additional
reading
journey.
Ali
7:45
Teacher
and
researcher
Charlotte
Hacking
identifies
space
in
the
curriculum
and
stronger
subject
knowledge
so
that
teachers
can
help
students
find
their
own
route
into
reading.
Charlotte Hacking
7:55
I
think
the
one
thing
would
be
how
do
you
bring
the
meaning
of
reading
back
into
the
curriculum?
And
you
do
that
through
the
enjoyable
reading
experience
and
the
teachers
that
have
the
subject
knowledge
and
the
autonomy
to
do
it.
I
don't
think
you
can
come
away
from
the
fact
that
schools
are
in
a
book
crisis.
We
need
much
more
access
to
text
to
be
able
to
do
that.
We
need
loads
of
subject
knowledge
in
going
into
schools
around
the
phonics.
We've
had
loads
of
phonics.
We
now
need
more
around
that.
What
are
the
other
routes
into
reading
and
how
do
we
foster
those
lifelong
readers?
I
think
the
year
of
reading
is
a
really
good
way
into
that,
but
how
do
we
make
it
broader
than
that
as
well?
Because
you
don't
want
it
to
just
be
a
year
of
reading,
you
want
a
lifetime
of
reading
for
children,
and
how
do
you
do
that
really
authentically?
Katy
8:39
Teacher
Sabrina
Sulliman
agrees
and
talks
about
dedicated
time
in
the
curriculum.
If
we
don't
allow
space
for
reading
and
only
make
it
an
afterthought,
then
it
isn't
seen
as
important
or
a
valuable
way
to
spend
time.
Sabrina Sulliman
8:51
Essentially,
what
we
try
and
build
into
our
school
is
not
something
that
is
built
in,
which
is
opportunity
to
read
where
you
don't
feel
like
it's
for
a
purpose
other
than
your
own
enjoyment.
And
to
do
that
in
a
school
where
every
hour
is
planned
curriculum
time,
then
they
have
their
own
enrichment
activities
or
after
school
clubs
they
want
to
go
to.
You
have
to
work
really
carefully
to
build
in
these
opportunities
to
read
for
pleasure.
And
unfortunately,
they
all
become
times
like
oh,
we've
got
20
minutes
in
the
library
today,
or
we
can
go
down
for
an
hour
every
two
weeks
on
a
rotation.
It's
important
for
us
to
build
those
opportunities
in.
But
if
I
could
put
one
initiative
in
place,
it
would
be
to
mandate
that,
to
understand
that
if
you're
going
to
ask
children
to
do
something
for
pleasure,
then
that
time
has
to
exist
somewhere
within
the
day,
then
it
might
become
habitual,
then
they
might
do
it
outside
of
the
school
day.
But
at
the
moment,
it
feels
like
we're
stealing
opportunities,
getting
in
10
minutes
here,
20
minutes
there
where
we
can.
You
can
see
a
kid
getting
really
into
a
book,
you're
like,
right,
that's
it,
the
time's
up,
date
title
name,
we've
got
to
start
with
our
like
learning
thing.
If
there's
no
space
for
it
within
the
school
day,
but
there's
a
space
for
loads
and
loads
of
testing.
The
message
it
sends
to
the
children
is
even
when
you
are
reading
in
school,
it
is
all
to
prep
you
for
that
test.
It's
all
to
make
you
a
stronger
reader
for
that
test.
So
there
is
still
ways
to
capture
whether
children
are
able
to
read,
but
the
opportunity
to
do
so
can't
be
so
closely
aligned
to
this
idea
of
testing,
and
it
can't
be
stolen
opportunities
within
curriculum
time.
It
should
be
included.
I
think
primary
schools
do
it
beautifully,
that
going
to
the
library
and
having
reading
corners
is
natural.
And
when
you
come
to
secondary
schools
and
you
don't
have
those
opportunities
built
into
your
day,
it
doesn't
feel
natural
anymore.
And
so
I
think
a
part
of
them
feel
like
we're
growing
up
now,
we
don't
do
that
anymore.
And
that's
really
dangerous.
And
therefore
it's
unsurprising.
I
think
it
was
it,
28%
of
children
in
2023
said
they
enjoyed
reading
for
pleasure.
I
wonder
how
many
of
those
children
have
opportunity
within
their
day-to-day,
within
their
home
lives,
to
just
sit
and
read
a
book
without
thinking
about
anything
other
than
just
reading
my
book.
So
I
suppose
I'd
mandate
that
compulsory
reading
for
pleasure
time.
Ali
11:03
Dr.
Darren
Chetty
has
a
specific
idea
around
how
children's
literature
is
understood
and
would
like
to
create
a
space
for
critical
thinking
and
discussion
rather
than
just
book
reviews.
Darren Chetty
11:12
I've
been
trying
to
get
a
magazine
off
the
ground
because
I
think
that
children's
literature
in
this
country
does
not
have
a
culture
of
criticism.
I've
come
from
doing
work
around
hip-hop
and
hip-hop
education,
and
almost
from
its
inception,
there
were
journalists
writing
critically
about
hip-hop,
and
you
know,
there's
sometimes
the
artists
didn't
like
it.
But
ultimately,
the
art
form
benefited
from
that
kind
of
engagement.
Something
about
children's
literature
being
seen
as
just
for
kids
means
that
the
broadsheets
largely
did
away
with
their
children's
sections.
There's
very
little,
and
again
it
gets
privatized,
it
then
becomes
influencers
who
are
getting
money
from
publishers
who
were
telling
us
about
stuff.
But
we
don't
have
thinking
seriously
about
children's
books
in
the
public
sphere.
The
TLS,
the
London
Review
of
Books,
they
very
rarely
cover
children's
literature.
When
they
do,
there's
very
few
people
who
would
get
a
word
in
in
that
conversation.
I'd
probably
go
with
the
children's
magazine,
just
because
I
honestly
think
that
it
won't
have
the
immediate
effect.
It
won't
be
something
children
would
read,
but
it
would
finally
treat
children's
literature
as
an
art
form
and
by
implication
take
children
more
seriously.
At
the
moment,
what
we
have
is
academic
writing
in
journals,
which
again,
the
way
academic
writing
is
set
up
is
not
to
be
particularly
readable
or
or
compelling.
So
we
have
this
strange
situation
where
the
creators
of
children's
literature
probably
don't
read
that.
The
criticism
is
so
far
removed
from
the
art
form.
And
instead,
a
lot
of
the
the
sort
of
really
difficult
conversations
around
how
we're
positioning
children,
what
we
owe
them,
what
are
our
moral
responsibilities
to
them,
the
extent
to
which
hope
needs
to
be
within
children's
literature.
Those
aren't
happening
in
in
form
public
spaces,
they're
happening
in
publishing
houses,
often
with
individual
authors
having
to
make
a
case
to
the
people
in
their
publishing
house
who
are
largely
in
a
business,
you
know.
It's
it's
a
creative
business,
it's
an
interesting
business,
but
it
is
a
business.
And
I
do
think
that
the
art
form
is
diminished
for
that,
and
that
children,
by
implication
and
by
extension,
are
also
diminished
for
that.
So
certainly,
you
know,
secondary
school
students,
because
that
access
is
well,
I'm
not
for
excluding
children
from
this
conversation,
but
what
I'm
saying
is
often
it's
been
the
business
directly
in
conversation
with
children
and
excluding
anyone
else
who
might
think
about
it
from
the
point
of
view
of
education,
literature,
art,
ethics,
and
all
of
those
are
dimensions
of
children's
literature
and
ones
we
should
take
more
seriously,
I
think.
I
mean,
books
for
keeps
are
fantastic
and
are
you
know
one
of
the
best
things
out
there,
but
they
are
primarily
about
helping
adults
know
what's
out
there
and
they're
gonna
be
positive.
And
if
you
only
have
three
sentences
to
say
to
someone,
you
probably
should
make
them
positive.
But
if
you
have
more
space
to
think
about
nuance,
then
perhaps
you
can
bring
in
things
that
aren't
completely
positive
but
aren't
designed
to
take
them
down
so
much
as
oriented
it
towards
an
improved
art
form.
I
think
that's
what
good
criticism
does.
You
know,
film
criticism,
sight
and
sound.
I
grew
up
reading
that
and
loving
how
it
helped
me
appreciate
film
more.
And
I
think
you
could
do
the
same
with
children's
literature,
and
it's
way
beyond
time
that
we
had
such
a
thing
in
this
country.
Katy
14:26
So
there
were
some
really
clear
messages
there
in
terms
of
what
one
thing
people
would
do,
and
also
all
of
the
interviews
that
we've
had.
So,
Ali,
what
do
we
think
the
thing
is
that
stands
out
most?
Ali
14:37
I
think
it's
lack
of
time
in
the
curriculum
for
reading,
it's
just
not
seen
as
important
enough,
you
know.
Katy
14:42
Yeah,
just
reading
into
your
interests,
so
whether
you
call
it
reading
for
pleasure
or
reading
for
purpose
or
whatever,
the
pure
joy
of
getting
lost
in
a
book
or
sharing
books
or
laughing
about
books,
talking
about
books,
finding
something
that
you're
interested
in
in
a
book,
there's
just
no
time
for
it.
Ali
14:57
I
mean,
at
primary
it's
not
so
bad,
is
it?
Because
it's
often
done
quite
well.
There's
story
time
and
whole
class
reading.
Katy
15:04
Yeah,
but
the
extent
seems
to
vary
massively
from
school
to
school.
I
mean,
some
people
find
time
for
it
every
day,
and
it's
absolutely
non-negotiable.
And
in
some
places
it
just
gets
squeezed
out
really
easily.
Ali
15:17
Yeah,
for
other
things
that
come
and
go.
But
it's
secondary,
it
totally
stops.
I
mean,
there
are
obviously
exceptions,
but
in
our
experience
it
stops,
and
kids
might
be
encouraged
to
have
a
book
in
their
back.
Katy
15:27
No,
the
same
book
that
they
carry
around,
like
a
book
brand
new
autumn.
Yeah.
But
that
but
they
never
get
any
real
space
to
read
it,
or
nobody's
taken
the
time
with
them
to
choose
that
book
or
to
recommend
them
new
books
which
they
might
be
interested
in.
Ali
15:41
Yeah,
and
also
it's
interesting,
isn't
it,
from
the
people
we
talk
to,
it's
always
assessed
and
tested.
I
mean,
children
associate
reading
with
English
lessons
or
being
tested.
Katy
15:52
Yeah,
I
mean,
they
get
that
message
from
the
very
start,
don't
they?
It's
like
you're
going
to
be
assessed
as
to
what
colour
book
you're
on,
and
you
go
through
that
process.
Ali
16:01
And
at
the
end
of
the
reading
schemes
and
things,
there's
again
a
test
in
order
to
move
to
the
next
stage,
isn't
there?
Katy
16:08
And
then
that
just
gets
built
on
by
each
key
stage
assessment
and
the
pressure
that
intentionally
or
unintentionally
gets
put
on
children
in
terms
of
those
assessments
and
the
way
in
which
they're
taught
reading
to
do
well
in
those
assessments.
There's
that
sense
that
it's
something
to
be
conquered.
And
that's
fine.
I
mean,
I
I
think
it's
difficult.
I
I
don't
want
to
get
into
the
phonics
are
a
bad
thing.
I
think
for
most
children,
and
we
know
it
doesn't
work
for
all
children,
but
for
most
children,
it's
a
good
structured
way
to
learn
to
read.
But
I
think
what
what
our
interviewees
were
saying
is
that
that's
fine
as
far
as
it
goes.
But
alongside
that,
you
need
to
be
being
clear
that
reading
is
about
so
much
more
than
that.
It's
about
real
books,
it's
about
real
stories,
it's
about
engaging
with
them
and
talking
about
them.
And
yes,
learning
your
letters
and
sounds
and
working
your
way
through
your
functional
skills
as
a
reader
is
really
important,
but
there's
more
to
it.
Ali
17:02
Yeah,
and
if
we
want
to
make
reading
a
valuable
thing
in
its
own
right
and
not
just
for
testing
them,
we've
got
to
change
that
emphasis
or
swing
that's
gone
so
far
into
the
functional
sides
of
reading.
I
mean,
our
kids
can
read.
I
think
we
did
quite
well
in
those
tests
for
reading.
It's
just
that
they're
not
choosing
to
read
for
fun
or
for
interest
or
just
chat
about
books.
Katy
17:24
And
so
then
their
level
as
a
reader,
however
much
they
may
have
the
functional
skill
of
being
able
to
read,
they
never
properly
become
really,
really
fluent
readers
because
you
don't
unless
you
practice
it.
And
so
that
limits
them
in
that
respect,
just
if
we're
just
going
down
the
skills
route.
But
it
just
also
limits
them
in
terms
of
well,
what
that
great
rich
knowledge
that
they
can
gain
and
experience
and
all
of
the
benefits
in
terms
of
well-being
and
everything
else
that
we
were
talking
about,
it
just
limits
that
and
it
cuts
out
that
access
to
it.
But
you
do
understand
that
if
that's
all
they
see
is
that
they're
reading
to
tick
a
box,
why
would
they
choose
to
do
it?
Ali
17:59
Yeah,
kids
know
that
they're
doing
this
to
in
order
to
pass
this
test
in
this
particular
way.
And
you
know,
the
news
about
another
test
at
year
eight
for
reading
isn't
going
to
make
more
children
read.
It's
not.
So,
in
our
opinion,
schools
need
to
give
space
to
reading
for
pleasure
as
well
as
reading
for
learning
and
framing
it
as
something
that's
good
for
you,
or
this
will
help
your
vegetables.
Yeah,
you
need
vegetables.
This
will
help
you
with
your
academic
achievement.
Katy
18:25
Yeah.
Ali
18:26
Not
likely
to
engage
young
people
in
reading
for
pleasure.
It
comes
through
them
making
it
a
social
activity,
creating
conversations
about
books,
time.
You
know,
just
time
in
the
library
to
kind
of
just
go
and
have
a
look,
what
there
is.
Katy
18:38
And
you
might
and
also
just
what
are
their
interests?
How
does
it
connect
with
their
interests?
Does
it
connect
with
films
that
they've
seen
or
games
that
they're
playing
if
they're
gamers,
other
sports,
other
activities
that
they're
enjoying,
there
may
well
be
links
across.
There
doesn't
have
to
be.
They
could
read
about
something
completely
different
because
they
spend
how
many
hours
playing
football,
they
might
not
want
to
read
about
it,
but
they
might
do.
But
it's
just
like
those
kinds
of
connections
and
discussions,
you
know,
it's
what
we
do
as
adult
readers,
we
find
things
that
interest
us.
Ali
19:06
Yeah,
exactly.
Who
knows?
But
without
the
space
and
the
time
to
even
just
get
lost
in
the
library
for
a
bit
of
time,
just
look
at
the
shelves
and
go,
Oh,
this
blue
book
looks
like
that.
Katy
19:16
Yeah,
and
also
picking
up
books
and
starting
reading
them
and
thinking
actually
this
just
does
not
interest
me,
and
being
able
to
put
it
down
again
and
choose
a
different
one.
It's
all
of
those
things
that
you
have
to
do
in
terms
of
becoming
a
reader
and
getting
a
sense
of
what
being
a
reader
is.
Ali
19:30
And
in
order
for
that
to
happen
in
a
cohesive
way,
you
need
adults
that
know
about
books.
So
if
a
kid
picks
up
a
book
that
they
like
that's
about
this,
then
you
need
an
adult
that
can
say,
Oh,
you
enjoyed
that
book,
that's
great.
Why
don't
you
try
this?
Katy
19:43
But
there's
no
real
coverage,
I
mean,
more
in
primary
teacher
education
than
secondary,
but
in
terms
of
modern
children's
literature,
having
a
really
strong
knowledge
of
that.
And
also
that
needs
to
be
kept
up
to
date
because
obviously
new
books
coming
out
all
the
time.
So
it
needs
to
be
part
of
ongoing
professional
development,
which
I
think
very
few
schools
include
an
update
on
new
children's
books
as
part
of
their
professional
development,
which
means
that
they're
not
in
a
position
to
make
those
connections
for
young
people
and
to
make
those
recommendations.
And
obviously,
there
are
individual
teachers
who
have
taken
a
real
interest
and
some
schools
that
do
it
really
well,
but
I
think
on
the
whole,
we
still
find
that
schools
are
recommending
books
which
they
read
as
children,
which
they
would
probably
recommend
teachers
who,
you
know,
I
mean,
we
we
quite
often
find
reading
lessons
schools
that
have
books
on
that
we
read
at
school.
Yeah.
And
we
are
quite
old.
Ali
20:38
We
are
very
old.
And
I
think
also
for
it
not
just
to
be
left
in
the
English
department's
remit
that
if
you're
a
geography
teacher
and
you've
read
an
interesting
book
that
might
be
about
geography
or
might
not
be,
then
it's
also
your
responsibility,
not
just
the
librarian
or
the
English
team's
responsibility.
We
read
books
about
everything,
and
we
need
reading
in
so
many
different
ways.
And
there's
a
a
teacher
we
know
that
does
a
science
book
club,
and
that
those
sorts
of
things
are
brilliant.
So
anything
that
might
play
to
an
interest
is
really
important,
but
you
need
to
have
space
and
you
need
to
have
knowledge
about
what
books
exist.
I
think
a
couple
of
the
teachers,
Sabrina
Sullivan
and
Glenn
Palmer
Bell,
talked
about
everyone
in
the
school
being
reading
model.
Katy
21:20
Yeah.
And
you
need
the
books.
And
you
need
the
books.
But
it
also
plays
into
Darren's
point
as
well
about
that
lack
of
a
critical
discussion
about
children's
books.
And
so
that
means
any
discussion
of
them
is
in
the
academic
journals,
which
mainly
for
academics,
or
it's
review-level
recommendations,
which
isn't
a
sort
of
broader
look
at
the
role
that
children's
literature
has,
or
a
kind
of
critical
analysis
of
the
genre
or
what's
happening
in
children's
books.
That's
that
middle
ground
that
you've
got
in
adults'
literature,
the
kind
of
times
literature
supplement
stuff,
but
just
a
more
in
depth
consideration
of
what
is
being
achieved
through
children's
literature,
because
children's
literature.
Is
that
strange
literature
that's
written
by
adults
for
children?
Ali
22:04
It's
commissioned
by
adults,
written
by
adults,
published
by
adults,
bought
by
adults.
Katy
22:09
For
children.
But
it
is
for
children.
And
so
there
are
adults
exercising
choices
at
every
stage
of
that
process.
And
so
interrogating
that
in
terms
of
what
children
actually
end
up
with
is
quite
a
valuable
thing
to
do,
I
think.
Ali
22:24
Yeah,
and
finally,
as
we've
said,
they
need
access
to
books.
We've
talked
about
libraries,
but
a
lot
of
children
don't
own
any
books
or
have
them
at
home.
Katy
22:31
That
came
through
really
strongly
was
just
that
awareness
of
how
much
the
cost
of
living
crisis
and
poverty
and
just
absolutely
that
issue
of
access,
that
so
many
children
will
not
own
any
books
or
have
them
in
their
home.
And
that
comes
back
to
libraries
as
being
that
great
equalizer
in
terms
of
access
to
books.
And
the
point
that
so
many
people
made
that
pupils
in
deprived
areas
are
less
likely
to
own
their
own
books.
And
they
are
also
less
likely
to
have
public
libraries
and
they're
less
likely
to
have
a
quality
bookshop.
It's
going
to
be
books
in
the
supermarket.
And
even
if
money
were
available
for
their
families
to
spend
on
books,
you're
buying
books
mainly
in
supermarkets,
and
that
is
a
very
narrow
selection.
It's
easy
to
share
dappo
in
everyone
else's
frustration.
Ali
23:18
There's
been
a
massive
disinvestment
in
libraries.
And
that
is
the
one
place
where
you
can
access
books,
regardless
of
your
income
and
circumstances.
And
you
can
sit
and
read
a
book.
I
mean,
not
everyone
has
space,
a
quiet
place
to
read
a
book.
Katy
23:32
Yeah.
And
that
is
why
libraries
are
just
so
important.
And
we've
done
all
this
disinvestment,
and
then
we
act
surprised
that
children
and
families
aren't
accessing
books
and
reading.
And
you're
just
gonna
think,
well,
well,
really?
And
guess
what?
It's
the
one
place.
Ali
23:47
One
place.
I
mean,
obviously,
there's
some
real
positives
around
the
National
Year
of
Reading.
Commitments
to
fund
primary
school
libraries
and
some
funding
for
books
in
secondary
schools.
Katy
23:55
Although
Yeah,
but
it's
not
clear
whether
that
funding
for
secondaries
is
ring-fenced.
I
mean,
we've
had
librarians
say
that
that
their
schools
are
quite
clear
it's
not.
Ali
24:03
That
that
money's
coming
in,
but
it's
gone
elsewhere.
Yeah.
But
then
that
but
that's
just,
you
know,
for
this
year,
there's
no
real
long-term
plan
to
keep
a
refresh
bookstore
or
fund
the
librarians
who
bring
the
real
value
to
having
the
libraries
in
the
first
place.
Katy
24:16
Yeah,
so
we
end
up
with
rooms
full
of
books
that
aren't
updated.
They
are
not
easily
discoverable
by
readers
because
there
isn't
someone
who
actually
knows
them
and
can
make
those
connections
for
readers
running
it.
Ali
24:28
Well,
there's
just
a
library
full
of
books
published
in
2000
and
whatever
year
we're
in.
So
access,
as
we
say,
means
not
just
access
to
any
old
books,
it's
a
wide
range
of
books
so
that
children
and
young
people
can
choose.
Key
motivator
for
reading.
I
know,
and
that's
the
challenge,
isn't
it,
for
schools
and
librarians,
but
also
for
publishers
and
for
everyone
in
the
sector.
Yeah.
There's
a
long
way
to
go
before
we're
offering
young
people
stories
that
act
as
windows,
mirrors,
and
doors
for
them.
Katy
25:06
Yeah,
yeah.
And
we've
had
some
progress
in
terms
of
diversity
of
children's
books
and
being
more
representative,
but
that
ebbs
and
flows
and
it's
not
in
a
great
place
at
the
moment.
Maybe
it
will
move
forward
again.
But
it
it
requires
that
debate
and
discussion
and
the
constant
challenging
of
how
are
we
serving
young
people
with
the
literature
that
we
offer
them.
Ali
25:26
So
lots
to
do.
And
obviously,
what
we
haven't
addressed
is
the
massive
elephant
in
the
room,
which
is
technology.
Katy
25:34
Yeah.
A
lot
of
people
touched
on
it,
didn't
they?
How
phones
are
an
issue.
Ali
25:40
They
literally
suck
your
time
away.
Katy
25:44
I
think
it
comes
back
to
the
modelling,
doesn't
it?
It's
that
if
we
want
children
and
young
people
to
read,
then
we
need
to
be
reading
ourselves.
And
if
we're
sitting
scrolling
on
our
phones
and
they're
sitting
scrolling
on
their
phones,
then
that
time
is
disappearing.
Ali
25:57
Yeah,
no
reading
is
getting
done.
I
mean,
it's
a
difficult
one,
isn't
it?
Because
it's
the
sum-up
of
all
screen
time.
Because
obviously
at
school
they're
on
screens
for
some
work
that
they're
doing,
and
then
at
home
they're
on
screens
for
homework
or
whatever.
And
if
you're
dyslexic,
then
you
might
need
to
read
on
a
screen
because
then
the
Kindle
helps
you
read.
But
I
think
it's
about
having
some
space
where
all
of
us
put
the
phone
down
and
block
the
apps
or
make
sure
you
can't
access
them
for
an
hour
or
something.
Katy
26:28
I
think
it's
what
Teresa
mentioned,
which
was
around
sustained
engagement
and
attention,
and
that
that's
what
we
should
be
worried
about
losing.
That
we've
got
so
used
to
this
sort
of
30-second,
one-minute
little
videos
and
reels,
and
that's
as
long
as
our
attention
span
goes.
And
that
that
isn't
as
sustaining.
You
don't
get
the
same
thing
out
of
it
as
you
do
really
immersing
yourselves
in
a
longer
sustained
narrative,
whether
that's
fiction
or
non-fiction.
I
do
sometimes
think
you
know
that
feeling
when
you're
reading
and
you
forget
and
you
lose
the
sense
of
time.
That's
sometimes
what
happens
when
you're
zoom
scrolling
on
social
media,
but
you
come
out
of
it
just
feeling
slightly
befuddled.
Whereas
when
you've
been
reading
and
you
come
out
of
it,
it's
a
very
different
feeling
in
terms
of
having
been
immersed
in
that
world.
Ali
27:19
Yeah,
but
the
benefits
that
there
are.
It's
reading
for
its
own
sake,
not
reading
because
you
need
to
read
in
order
to
do
X,
Y,
and
Z.
It's
how
do
you
get
back
that
reading,
as
you
said,
for
escapism
or
reading
just
to
read,
because
reading
itself
just
takes
you
out
of
your
current
situation.
Or
what
I
reread
when
I'm
feeling
like
I
don't
know
what
to
read,
then
I'll
reread
some
Jane
Austen.
Because
in
that
world
the
rules
are
quite
clear,
and
you
know,
because
it's
a
comfort
read,
because
you
know
what's
going
to
happen,
you
know
that
eventually
Lizzie
will
marry
Mr.
Darcy.
Sorry,
spoiler
alert.
And
having
those
reads
that
you
go
back
to
that
are
for
whatever
reason
are
really
kind
of
important
to
have
in
your
world,
I
think.
Katy
28:05
Yeah,
it's
getting
children
and
young
people
to
the
point
that
they
have
had
that
experience
of
what
it
is
like
to
have
been
totally
lost
in
a
book
and
or
a
series.
And
then
once
you've
done
that,
you
know
that
feeling,
and
then
you
have
a
kind
of
reference
point
in
to
why
you
want
to
go
back
to
reading
and
why
that
might
be
more
sustaining
and
relaxing
and
enjoyable
than
scrolling
through
whatever
cat
videos
or
whatever
else
you
get.
I
get
cat
videos,
you
get
dog
videos.
Whatever
little
corner
of
the
internet
is
being
served
up
to
you.
It's
mostly
a
bit
dull.
So
that's
some
of
the
things
which
we've
taken
away
from
this
discussion,
which
we
found
really
interesting.
And
thank
you
to
everyone
who
took
part.
We
know
it
wasn't
a
comprehensive
look.
We
know,
for
example,
that
we
concentrated
on
secondary
teachers,
and
there
may
be
some
primary
teachers
who
want
to
take
part
in
that
conversation.
Other
people
think
that
there
are
things
that
we've
missed
or
things
that
you
want
to
add
to
it.
And
we
really
encourage
you
to
do
that.
Send
us
an
at
info
at
mostlybooktalk.com.
You
can
send
that
as
an
that
we
can
read
out,
or
you
can
send
us
a
voice
note
or
a
little
recording
that
we
can
play
if
you
want
to
add
a
contribution.
Ali
29:24
It's
obviously
an
ongoing
conversation
for
not
just
the
National
Year
of
Reading
but
beyond.
One
that
I
think
we're
going
to
return
to
because
there's
a
lot
to
say
about
it
and
there's
a
lot
of
work
still
to
be
done.
Katy
29:36
Yeah,
there
is
a
real
sense
that
the
National
Year
of
Reading
can't
just
be
this
year.
It's
got
to
be
the
start
of
something
rather
than
just
something
that
starts
and
finishes
within
the
year.
If
it's
going
to
be
meaningful,
it
has
to
be
the
beginning
of
that
discussion,
a
beginning
of
thinking
about
some
of
these
things
differently.
Ali
29:51
Yeah.
And
we'll
put
another
issue
out
when
we
gather
what
people
want
to
say.
Our
last
word
goes
back
to
something
that
author
Sita
Brahmachari
said
that
places
reading
at
the
center
of
what
young
people
need
to
thrive.
Sita Brahmachari
30:05
The
scale
that
we
need
needs
to
be
that
all
of
the
amazing
educators,
the
librarians,
all
of
the
amazing
people
in
the
book
agencies
that
I
know,
we
need
to
come
together
and
in
unity,
and
we
need
to
say,
right,
this
needs
to
change,
which
means
I
need
to
have
this
vision
of
stimulating
the
whole
of
the
creative
child,
making
sure
that
they
and
their
families,
their
guardians
have
the
opportunity
to
thrive.
I
mean,
I
call
it
reading
to
thrive.
It's
not
just
to
survive,
it's
not
just
to
pass
the
test,
it's
to
thrive.